RLM 81/82 – More secrets unveiled

[Cpt_Farrel]

Oberst, read posts 11 and 12, there seems to have been trouble with 70/71 and quality. The info in my post comes from Jürgen Kiroff, written in an appendix to Ken Merricks two volume work on Luftwaffe camouflage. In post 12 there's a good example of what have been the reason for the paint darkening.

Even if there was an unlikely typo or misunderstanding in the document as to how the quality of 70/71 was bad it doesn't make the document less valid does it?

I agree that it's surprising that such paint passed the rigorous quality control of the RLM, was there a change in the formula that created unforseen troubles I wonder?


Cheers / Anders

[Clint Mitchell]

Could the term 'Nachdunkeln' when used in this sense be translated as 'dulling [=de-saturation]' (with time)? Fading...? or 'mattes' over time?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Clint Mitchell

Could the term 'Nachdunkeln' when used in this sense be translated as 'dulling [=de-saturation]' (with time)? Fading...? or 'mattes' over time?

I agree that the basic translation of "darkening" doesn't really fit what you would expect (i.e. colours usually fade) and maybe there is another sense of the word, or the wrong word was used (human error is always a possibility).

On another point, what earthly use was paint that lasted years on a combat aircraft that would be lucky to last weeks? This sounds like a peacetime standard which may of course not have been adapted to suit wartime conditions; once something is in a book of regulations it can be hard to change.

[ouidjat]

Hi Michael,

I totally agree with your post #21 ... that's the reason I opened your Hikoki book where I did find this extract Under!
Enjoy it.

Regards, Franck.

[RolandF]

In post #12 I wanted to explain this effect "nachdunkeln". Some yellow pigments are not stable according to my experiences. In case a colour loses its yellow portion through dissolution of those pigments it inevitably will change its general character.
A simple example: In case of green lossing its yellow portion it will change towards blue.
The Ju88 fuselages in Berlin wear a "RLM 70/71" camouflage which can be described as two greys with a slight greenish touch. The colour has NOT faded, it looks darker.
And this might be the effect of "nachdunkeln" which is described in the official paper.
Michael Ullmann, from memory some "chromium" pigments come to my mind. Can the pigment be named exactly which has caused this colour shift? Isn´t it possible the ominous brown-green is nothing more than an attempt to create more stable greens by adding yellowish-brown pigments?

Servus

Roland

[harrison987]

Hi!

Interesting...

The JG54 green cam job in 1942/1943 was not done with a "new" German spec paint -it was a RUSSIAN spec.

The green color used on the Russian front, was John Deere Green.

Yes, that is correct.

The Russians had bought numerous supplies of tractors and military equipment manufactured by John Deere FROM the US. They were also supplied with the correct paint (John Deere Green).

Repairs and cam jobs DONE in Russia, were completed with RUSSIAN technology. This is why we find IMPERIAL (not metric) screws and fitting on repair jobs on German wrecks found in Russia.

The Germans were not using RLM spec colors - they were using what was on hand in Russia. In this case, captured Russian materials and paints.

John Deere Green is the exact color that was found on the Fw190 that is with the Flying Heritage collection and is now flying. It is also the exact paint they used when painting her during the restoration.

So these early aircraft were not using a "new" paint - just what was on hand at the time - in this case, John Deere Green...

Mike

[Graham Boak]

It may have been a close colour match, but you do not use tractor paint on aircraft! This is an old and totally discounted tale. Aircraft paint is different from other paints, a speciality in itself because of the specific requirements for adhesion to light metals under a wide range of conditions (pressure and temperature), light weight and low pigment size (for low drag). None of which apply to tractor paint other than temperature to a more limited extent. If the paint was of low quality then this affected the performance of the aircraft - top speed and maximum altitude reduced, fuel consumption increased.

Anyone who tells you that car paint, tractor paint, ship paint or household emulsions were used on aircraft (other than for decoration on a limited area) does not know his subject. There were very specific regulations about the application of paint, with inspectors making sure they were kept to. The Luftwaffe was no less strict on these matters than any other nation.

[Modeldad]

Originally Posted by Graham Boak

It may have been a close colour match, but you do not use tractor paint on aircraft! This is an old and totally discounted tale. Aircraft paint is different from other paints, a speciality in itself because of the specific requirements for adhesion to light metals under a wide range of conditions (pressure and temperature), light weight and low pigment size (for low drag). None of which apply to tractor paint other than temperature to a more limited extent. If the paint was of low quality then this affected the performance of the aircraft - top speed and maximum altitude reduced, fuel consumption increased.

Anyone who tells you that car paint, tractor paint, ship paint or household emulsions were used on aircraft (other than for decoration on a limited area) does not know his subject. There were very specific regulations about the application of paint, with inspectors making sure they were kept to. The Luftwaffe was no less strict on these matters than any other nation.

Graham, you need to move beyond that, because what ever paint was at hand may have had to do. USAAF used Corps of Engineer sand in the Pacific. After reading the monograph on Malta Spitfires, some of those aircraft wore as much as four coats of paint.

And there is no real evidence that aircraft on Wasp were painted in aircraft paint.

Sometimes the need for proper camou trumps the 6mph or so of lost speed.

As for tractor paint, I've never seen anyone present anything but rumor. The Germans overran VVS airfields, I'm sure there was some paint about.

[Graham Boak]

It doesn't matter how good the bar story is: 1+1 does not equal 3 and aircraft paints were specialist products applied when authorised under controlled (and inspected) conditions. There were some pretty poor paints used in WW2: I could mention the RAF's Special Night RDM2, or the Luftwaffe's night distemper, but these were all authorised issues for use according to orders. Aircraft were not painted with tractor paint, sports car paint, or naval wooden deck stain, just on the whim of junior officers or otherwise-unemployed airmen.

[harrison987]

Sure...and the Germans were supposed to have 3 square meal per day while fighting in Stalingrad...and that never happened.

"Textbook" is one thing...real field conditions is another. I guarantee you that if the German government was having issues supplying their troops with food and supplies, I HIGHLY doubt they were making "RLM PAINT"
a priority - the crews would have used whatever paint is on hand (and yes John Deere Paint was used from captured factories). They would not have waited around for that "all important supply of RLM spec summer aircraft paint"...when they had Russian paint on hand - this is a known fact.

I have seen NUMEROUS German types of paint on many wrecks I have been involved with...and I can tell you 100% that REGARDLESS of what is drawn up in "official paperwork", field conditions were quite different. Most of the later-war aircraft paint peeled only after a few months of being applied - as documented in numerous photographs. This was due to low quality and sub-standard paint.

This idea that "all paint used was specifically "aircraft quality" type is nonsense.

In addition...I know of one aircraft wreck that was painte in NINE different shades of paint:

76 (2 shades), 74, 75, 66 (yes, external paint), 81, 74, 80, and 82.

Where is the textbook on that?

Mike