1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova

[egbert]

Alright- thanks again for the next batch of information from Alex. It all sheds more light on the final day in the life of H.Rosenbaum.

I have the big dilemma now to have 2 conflicting information about the crash site and the plane identifyer:

1a. from Matti, whose primary source is the WAST: (Wehrmachtauskunftsstelle) the plane crash occurred at 9 km nn/w of Toplet (German: Töplitz) at an altitude of 1052m. Indeed there is a one mountain that reaches up to 1070ish meters.
Also the WAST says the identification of the JU52 involved is WerkNr. 501326, PO + GO
Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, +
Bordfunker Ofw Kunkel, Josef, +
Bordwart Uffz Striebing, Willi, verletzt
Uffz Striebing am 1944-05-20 seinen Verletzungen erlegen.


1b. from Alex: it is correct that your primary source is Rudy Klemm?=
the plane crash was 9km n/w of Poletz. Poletz village/town I cannot find unfortunately, maybe it is Toplet?
The identification of the JU52 is different and conveyed as Werk Nr. 3225,PH + OI
Is anybody able to shed light on the differing Werknummern and identification letters?

P.S. I have no whatsoever info on the Spanish and Argentinian decorations. All of my uncles naval documentation I suppose to be archived with the UBoot-Archiv in Cuxhaven?

[egbert]

A possible flight route discrepancy :

I have depicted below the suggested flight path. From the last fueling stop in Arad the general flight path to Berlin should be direction North and here we see a Southern flight path from Arad towards Toplet/Orsova. Could it be that they actually did not reach Arad but were on their way from Bucharest-Pipera towards Arad and before landing in Arad crashed near Toplet?

[researcher111]

Egebert

Your hypothesis sounds reasonable to me and thanks for making the sketch , though according some publications I have at my end ,one of which is called " Rettung Zwischen Den Fronten " the courier flights of the Kriegsmarine had to shuttle between Naval bases in Romania and Bulgaria even Greece before getting to Berlin to collect / drop personnel & post . According Klemm's notes the flight refuelled at Arad Delta after a stopover at Pipera ( Baneasa) then was headed for Varna Bulgaria . What does not make sense to me is why they didn't fly directly from Pipera to Varna which possibly lays the key question, other than intending to collect/drop Luftwaffe personnel from Arad and then to Varna.

PS : On May 10,1944 the 15th AF out of Italy was conducting high alt.recon flights over Romania , no bombings or intrussions of Allied fighter or bomber aircrafts . The 2nd Ukrainian Front was conducting air to ground ops in Moldavia , I therefore exclude contact with the enemy on the crash perimeter area or SE of Bucharest.

[egbert]

Could anybody comment please on the different Werknr and identification markings as listed in post #18 please?

[researcher111]

Is spelled in Romanian language Topleț ( Topletz) the other location may be an error (Polet ) as into the JU-52 Werk Nummer , I can't help further is not my area of research and only reffering what Klemm left .

I have a question though , Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, + was the pilot , who was then the co pilot or was the flight not manned by a co pilot ? who was the Navigator for such a long route
(Flugbeobachter ) and how did you come up with 23 pax , 2 pilots and a P-38 bringing down the JU-52 ? 15th Air Force ( 5 PRG) performed high alt.recon flights with F-5's on that day, as such no
enemy fighters involved .

[Matti Salonen]

Normally military Ju 52/3m was flown with a crew of four: Pilot, Observer, Radio Operator and Flight Mechanic.

Matti

[egbert]

Alex, 16.4.44 crash due to fighter engagement, the other
10.5.44 crash due to weather impact

[researcher111]

Fighter Aircraft engagement am 16.4.44 vollig ausgeschlossen !

Am 16.4. waren über Orsova weder noch Rumänien gar keine US Flugzeuge involviert also gar keine Feindflüge weder noch irgendwelche P-38, deshalb wie wurde den JU-52 am 16.4 abgeschossen und durch wem ? Meiner Meinung nach auch diese Flug teilte den ähnlichen Schicksal wie den anderen datiert 10.5 Wurde auch diese Flug ohne Beobachter bemannt wenn ja dann ist alles recht seltsam . Langstrecken ohne Beobachter !

[egbert]

Here is my interpretation and speculation based on Matti's and Alex' inputs.

1. The Ju52 with identifier PH + OI, Werk Nr . 3225 , left Mamaia (Konstanza), stopped in Pipera (Bucharest)=fact.

Next Matti's and my speculations:
2. Next -why a new briefing in Pipera after flying a mere 200km only, or, stop for refueling?
Instead they changed planes to another Ju52 with identifier PO+GO, WerkNr. 501326, SKZ , sent from OKM to pick them up for the immediate flight towards Berlin, via Arad (which was never reached). Maybe the statement from R.Klemm, that they fueled in Arad, is a mix-up of the eye witness account ?
KK Rosenbaum was a VIP called to Berlin. A Flotillenchef does not fly around in circles, burning valuable time and certainly did not fly 1000km from Mamaia (Konstanza) to Arad and back from Arad 1000km to Varna and than proceed towards Berlin. This is not plausible at all.

3. From Pipera the new JU52 was WNr. 501326, SKZ PO+GO. Flight path from Pipera across the wide plains and starting the West Carpathian mountain range crossing northbound by turning into the valley north, from Orsova to Arid . Just behind Orsova in thick fog the pilot was disoriented and accidentally deviated from the flight path left into the mountain region and crashed 9km n/w of Toplet.

Please see speculated flight path in attached file

[egbert]

Originally Posted by researcher111

Fighter Aircraft engagement am 16.4.44 vollig ausgeschlossen !

Am 16.4. waren über Orsova weder noch Rumänien gar keine US Flugzeuge involviert also gar keine Feindflüge weder noch irgendwelche P-38, deshalb wie wurde den JU-52 am 16.4 abgeschossen und durch wem ? Meiner Meinung nach auch diese Flug teilte den ähnlichen Schicksal wie den anderen datiert 10.5 Wurde auch diese Flug ohne Beobachter bemannt wenn ja dann ist alles recht seltsam . Langstrecken ohne Beobachter !

Just an afterburner to the 16.4.44 crash in the same Toplet/Töplitz area:
The 16th saw a hell of allied action due to escort fighters and bombers roaming the skies in the campaign against the oil fields, Luftwaffe airfields and Belgrade.
I quote from another thread here on this forum:
...... it should be noted that the loss of a Ju 52 on 16 April 1944, so as shown in the OBSO report for the day, was not linked to the Allied attacks around Belgrade. Involved was in fact Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501325 of 9./TG 4, which was downed by Allied escort fighters at Toplitz, some 9 km to the West of Orsava in the Banat region of Romania. 16 men aboard were reportedly killed. Another 16 men came to death on 17 April 1944 when the Ju 52/3m g8e W.Nr. 501132 1Z+JX of 11./TG 4 was hit by Allied escort fighters and ditched on the Danube river in an attempted emergency landing some 32 km South of Orsava." end of quote.

Also the eyewitness account from the crash on the 16th (as posted in „Deutsche Vortragsreihe Reschitza“ XIV Auflage, 23. Juni 2007
7 Juli 2007 XVIII. Jahrgang – Nr. 7 (211) – 2007, Seite 53 – 54") says:

quote: "......wieder Fliegeralarm in Orschowa. Auf einer Wiese, auf dem Rücken liegend, pobierten wir, mein Freund Luki und ich, die vielen silbernen Bomber „B 24“ zu zählen. Es waren auch mehrere doppelrumpfige Jagdflugzeuge. Da wurde vor uns auch ein tieffliegendes deutsches Rotes-Kreuz-Flugzeug (JU 52) aus Richtung Turnu Severin kommend gesichtet. Leider aber auch von den Jägern. Man hörte die Bordkanonen krachen, das Rote-Kreuz-Flugzeug wurde getroffen und stürzte bei Topletz, ca. 12 km von Orschowa entfernt ab. Ich konnte mit einem deutschen Militär-LKW, einem Opel Blitz, zur Unglücksstelle mitfahren. Die war noch rauchbedeckt. Flammen züngelten noch hie und da. Weitverstreut Flugzeugtrümmer, Leichen. Zerstückelte Leichen. Ein grauenvoller Anblick. Und da sah ich ihn. Den Bauernbuben, der von einer zermalmten Leiche die scheinbar noch brauchbaren Stiefel herunterzuzerren versuchte. Ich ergriff ein krummes Rohrstück, das ich gerade finden konnte und lief schreiend hin. Der Junge machte halt, schaute mich verängstigt an, machte kehrt und lief weg. Ich lies ihn laufen......" end of quote.

But - - - this thread shall stay with the crash, dated 10 May 1944 in the same area n/w of Toplet, near Orsova.