Heinz Marquardt and Kurt Tanzer

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good morning Gentlemen,

is it known who was the first author to indicate a Tanzer score of >100 ?

Have a nice weekend,

Michael

Toliver & Constable's Horrido, and
Aders & Held's Jagdgeschwader 51 "Moelders" (1984) are the oldest books that I can find that state that figure.

I suspect the latter is quoting the former

Toliver & Constable took a lot of licence with the figures they quoted for Tanzer and among others: Boehm Tettelbach (40 victories), Douglas Pitcairn (14 victories) and Rollwage (whose tally of "102" with 44 Viermots was eventually debunked by Prien)

[natttuppen]

I also wish John a speedy recovery. In a possible book 5, I would appreciate a description of the process from the paper-work completed by the pilot (or clerk?), to the possible award of an abschuss to a pilot, and some comments upon the loss of the original documents in a bombing-raid, IIRC in 1943, and the work undertaken to recreate the lost material.

[Johannes]

Hi Craig

With regards to von Fassong, guess it proves that Obermaier was not afraid to admit his earlier mistake. I did acquire many of his claim reports, this included one from a JG 51 staffel covered only by the mikrofilms in a time and date type, thus von Fassong's total should be sixty-four, and should not be any more because he was lost only when the mikrofilms cease, not after. Obermaier was also very precise about the total and western/viermot totals of Karl Gratz, but of his 138 confirmed claims only six in the West, and two viermots were amongst them, not seventeen and four viermots……….exactly those also quoted for Tanzer. Actually very often I find the totals tally with Obermaier, but much less achieved in the Western sphere, and viermots often half of those quoted(like Bühligen). Obermaier's work was inspirational and way ahead of it's time...….my childhood bible.

Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

Mr Obermaier's work was your childhood bible ?
It's always interesting to learn who was the idol of an idol.

Have a nice Tuesday,

Michael

[Alfred.MONZAT]

Whatever Volume 5 will be about, I'll buy it

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Sorry Nick about the Hector, must have just caught your surname before typing.
I am flattered that a fifth volume would be well accepted. As I say John Foreman is seventy-six now and doesn't feel he can squeeze a fifth volume out of himself(certainly not at the moment), but given time and a little coaching I might be able to manage it.
Personally I spent thirty-six year collating the information prior to publication, and worked with John for fifteen years on it, I would send him hundreds if not thousands of amendments/corrections over this period. So for fifteen years I came home from work did some rowing(1000 km per year), ate whilst still sweating, and researched until sleep time, up in the early hours to do more research, before going to work.

Basically I am for the small scoring pilots, so I would personally like to publish additions/amendments to volume one to four aces, I have collated a lot of information not on the mikrofilms since publication, especially 1945. Also would like to do a section on new aces know to me, a section on possible aces i.e not five confirmed claims, but five plus possible, a list of ALL known claimers to myself......some 7600 pilots totalling 66600 confirmed claims. I have just worked on an article with Erik Mombeek about the "points system" and how a claim was actually made paperwork wise and think a section on this may be helpful, this article with Erik also dwelled upon rudder markings and there differing types.
I have had so much help, especially since publication by so many enlightening people who all have my most sincere thanks.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

this is heroic.

All the best to you, your project and those who help you,

Michael

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Hi Guys

Sorry Nick about the Hector, must have just caught your surname before typing.
I am flattered that a fifth volume would be well accepted. As I say John Foreman is seventy-six now and doesn't feel he can squeeze a fifth volume out of himself(certainly not at the moment), but given time and a little coaching I might be able to manage it.
Personally I spent thirty-six year collating the information prior to publication, and worked with John for fifteen years on it, I would send him hundreds if not thousands of amendments/corrections over this period. So for fifteen years I came home from work did some rowing(1000 km per year), ate whilst still sweating, and researched until sleep time, up in the early hours to do more research, before going to work.

Basically I am for the small scoring pilots, so I would personally like to publish additions/amendments to volume one to four aces, I have collated a lot of information not on the mikrofilms since publication, especially 1945. Also would like to do a section on new aces know to me, a section on possible aces i.e not five confirmed claims, but five plus possible, a list of ALL known claimers to myself......some 7600 pilots totalling 66600 confirmed claims. I have just worked on an article with Erik Mombeek about the "points system" and how a claim was actually made paperwork wise and think a section on this may be helpful, this article with Erik also dwelled upon rudder markings and there differing types.
I have had so much help, especially since publication by so many enlightening people who all have my most sincere thanks.

Kind Regards

Johannes

It's occurred to me that men like You, John Foreman and Chris Shores are getting 'up there, in years'. What will happen to all those projects when they all get too old to work or worse, pass beyond the veil? Do they and You have younger researchers helping on book projects who can step in & finish the work and 'carry on' the research?


NM

[bakerman]

BTW, does anyone know where Tanzer was buried? He was killed 25-6-60 near Palma de Mallorca/Spain in a Luftwaffe Lockheed T-33A "EB+397", his unit was Aufklärungsgeschwader 52, based at this time at Erding Airfield near Munich/Bavaria.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

There are several other "100" ers from before the mikrofilms somewhat below this total. Some can be explained away by unconfirmed claims being included, a good case of this is Geißthardt.

Woidich has been a "Hans Ring" game.

Wachowiak had eighty-nine. I think Obermaier stated that his Mother said 120-130. So based on hearsay. Obermaier correctly states eight-six, then nothing more heard of him until his death. In reality Wachowiak returned to combat later and claimed three additional Russian aircraft.......total eight-nine.

Then there are those who tell tales. I do believe that Walter Dahl used his position in 1945 to just not so much "overclaim", but rather just made up a heap of claims post war. He himself states a total of 133. Therefore if my theory is correct then it's hearsay, or his say. He lists witnesses for his claims, unfortunately they will all be gone now, but I bet if we asked them they would deny ever flying with Dahl.

I have even seen a "doctored" flugbuch, basically claims added in post war, and judging by the handwriting, not by the pilot. There is also an abschüßelist about for a Schlacht pilot with 103 claims, he existed in real life, but the claims he did make in real life(mikrofilms) do not match any of those on the list.

Slowly perhaps we will get to the truth.

Keep Well

Johannes