Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[HGabor]

Hi BenFolk
Yes, Hartmann's sortie ended at 09:20 LT, so he returned to his base immediately after his Yak-9 claim at 09:00 LT over downtown Brno. Problem is no Soviet fighter was lost in the entire Brno area throughout May 8 1945, not a single American Mustang was in the area (let alone 12, that he mentioned which 'forced' him to leave the region), he flew alone (so no witness), or at least his wingman was never specified who confirmed his final kill... He stated that he was full of hate when he saw the Russians over Brno (understandably due to the just lost war) so I think by anger and as a final emotional revenge he pushed another (fake) claim into his tally... Long story in short: Nothing, I say nothing supports his Yak-9 'victory' for May 8, 1945! If it was not just a made up story, then it was just another overclaim, which confirms my original, December, 2019 statement, that based on tons of wartime records, he could have about 80, max. 100 real victories during WWII, not 352. (Don't get me wrong, it's still many, BUT: it's not a world record, not even close.)

About 70% of his so called: 'victories' contradict all related Soviet and American documents, while the very same set of records confirm other German pilots' claims with astonishing accuracy. So it's about him, not about the records.

Do not worry, it is very important and critical to analyse all possible options in order to get to the truth, so if you find anything else, let us just discuss it.

Cheers,
Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,

"About 70% of his so called: 'victories' contradict all related Soviet and American documents, while the very same set of records confirm other German pilots' claims with astonishing accuracy. So it's about him, not about the records."

Only check Helmut Lipfert to see a lot of difference...


regards

[Nick Hector]

Foennekold is another good example

[Monaco]

As Iwan (Lawrinenko) is preparing another book on Föbbekold and Wolfrum I questioned him if their real successes (= founded in soviet records) are higher than that of Batz he agreed and said he believes they are even higher than Hartmann's.

[Monaco]

The working title is „Zwei Kameraden“ (two comrades),
though we are making good progress, I‘ m not sure it´ ll released this year. If you want I Keep you informed via this thread. To Leon:
It‘s covering the careers of Fönnekold/ Wofrum from the beginning to the end, i.e. Fönnekold startet over the Caucasus in autumn 1942 flying together with aces like Barkhorn and Krupinski. Wolfram joined in in spring 1943 over the Kuban. Only for the period of the Battles over Kerch and Crimea there will be some doubling with „Drei Falken“ - and new infos will surely be included. The battle over Jassy will be analysed in Detail. That is were we are at the moment.
Cheers
Michael

[Nick Hector]

Thank you Michael,
I await that one eagerly. Drei Falken was simply brilliant

[leonventer]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

I await that one eagerly. Drei Falken was simply brilliant

I'll second that! Thanks very much for your update, Michael.

I also just want to acknowledge the excellent research that Nick Hector does on matching claims and losses. He's been sharing it generously on various forums, and it's greatly appreciated as well.

Regards,
Leon Venter

[Monaco]

I agree with Leon,
thank you Nick and least we forget Mr. Gabor

[BenFolk]

Hello Monaco


I have another question. Who was Hartmann's opponent in his so-called 250 kill? Did he even fight or invent shooting?



Many Thanks


BenFolk

[Monaco]

Quoting from Iwan´s article:

https://warspot.ru/3125-hartman-nad-...one-za-mechami


"Finally, on June 4, 1944 the German ace decided that it was time to take the magic barrier of the number 250 and declared six victories at once - one for a LaGG (16:25) and five over Aerocobras (16:10, 18:23, 18:53, 19:15 and 19:18). The P-39 announced last and was Hartmann's 250th victory. What do the Soviet documents say about these "festivity events"? Of the units armed with the Airacobra, only the regiments of the 9th Guards IAD, which lost two fighters, suffered losses again. The Germans also "drank blood" on that day from 427th IAP of the 294th IAD, which immediately missed four "Yaks". However, all these losses have nothing to do with the claims of the "hero of the day", since they are the successes of other JG 52 pilots!
The real achievements of Hartmann, perhaps, include hitting at 18:53h an Aircobra of the 16th Guards IAP. From departure in the period 18: 20–19: 15, the fighter of junior lieutenant G.G. Statsenko returned with damages: in battle his "Airacobra" received one bullet hole in the stabilizer, two - in the radio transmitter, three - in the rear compartment frame, and one - in the main landing gear. The pilot had a minor shrapnel wound in the soft tissues of his right leg.
Judging by the time and place of applications, the ace achieved his 250th victory in a battle with the pilots of the 438th IAP. In the the period 18: 55-19:45h, eight "Airacobras", headed by captain V.S. Semykin, patrolling in the Sculeni-Buimecheni area, met 10 German fighters identified as Fw 190. As a result of the air battle the Soviet pilots declared one shot down and shot up "Focke-Wulf" without loss.
Unfortunately, the time of departure of the pilots of the 152nd Guards IAP of the 12th Guards IAD, which lost three Yaks and three pilots that day, is still unknown. The regiment commander, Hero of the Soviet Union, Lieutenant Colonel V.A. Merkushev was shot down from the ground and taken prisoner, and junior lieutenants I.A. Chubarov and V.V. Pavlov did not return from a combat mission: one of them, presumably, also became a victim of German anti-aircraft gunners, and the second was on the account of German fighters. Whether Hartman has anything to do with these losses is not yet known, but, in any case, there are several other applications from the German side for these successes.

So we got for Hartmann 1 damaged P-39 against his claims for 5 and the possibility for a verified LaGG (= Jak).

The only thing that we can say in regard of Hartmann is we are sitting here at the desk not risking our lives in daily combat, he was young, the darling of the NS propaganda and in that way not alone among the fighter arm. Pilots tended to overclaim when they were in reach of magic figures that would bring them fame, awards and a rent for their wifes or beloved ones in case of death or injuries (even in the successor country of Nazi-Deutschland the FRG). In contrast widows and victims of Nazi persecution mainly got no rent in the FRG, because of "lack of documents"...though not the theme maybe worth a footnote.

Regards

Michael