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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#1
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
OK Graham,
I will try to be 100% exact in my terminology. The primary 'attack' aircraft. The fighter-bomber in the role of going in low and attacking specific targets in support of ground forces. Remember in the Falklands war all the hype about the Vulcans attacking Port Stanley airfield? Did nothing at all from the height they were bombing at. It was the Harriers, as fighter-bombers, who caused the real damage and took out the Argentinian aircraft on the ground. And in all the recent wars, the ones in the middle East, it was fighter-bombers that were causing most of the havoc on the ground. The point I make is that it is not the huge bombers flying many thousands of feet high that are the most effective; it is the low level fighter-bombers that cause the enemy most damage and provide the most support to their own ground forces. The Russians in WW2 bore that out. They were not interested in high level bombing, but stuck to the low level attacks that pissed off the German army so much because they were so disruptive and damaging. Christer Bergstrom brings this point out excellently in his Black Cross/Red Star books. Would German troops on the ground prefer to face a force of IL2s going in at low level against them and taking out their positions, or a high level bombing force dropping bombs in such a pattern that there was a good chance they wouldn't get hit? I think the question answers itself... Figher-bombers, not standard bombers, is my point, Graham. Matters not whether they were piston or jet engined.
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Wir greifen schon an! Splinter Live at The Cavern, November 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxOCksQUKbI Danke schön, Dank schön ich bin ganz comfortable! |
#2
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
I hope not to get dragged into a discussion of tactical vs strategic airpower, feeling there are merits in both. However I will simply add here that the German tankers, like the 262 pilots, would just have to suffer whichever attack the Allies choose to apply, having no fuel thanks to the actions of the strategic bomber. Further, the Allied supplies would have been brought into action across sealanes kept open by the strategic bomber in its anti-submarine role, with axis sealanes closed predominantly by the strategic bomber as minelayer, and axis rail routes shattered by, guess what?
But more than that requires a separate thread. |
#3
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
I think we are closing to the actual problem - terminology. There is a recent term, a close air support aircraft, which is a little bit more accurate or descriptive. Anyway, Jaguar is rather a ground attack/reconnaissance aircraft, while Su-7 is a strike aircraft or a light bomber, rather than fighter. Their (Su-7) task was to drop tactical nuclear weapons and not to fight in the air. That said, there is an obvious question, what should be considered Fighter Bomber. During the war the most popular Fighter Bomber RAF flew was... Mosquito FB.VI. It was actually a light bomber but capable to engage enemy aircraft, which stood no chance against ordinary fighters, however. Quite a different animal comparing to the German Jabo, which was just an ordinary fighter with bomb racks.
That said, it must be noted fighter-bomber of any mentioned kind is not the best solution, but rather the cheapest one, just like with anything universal. Finally, I would suggest not to discuss Il-2 here, especially as recent Russian research puts quite a different and surprising light on the subject. |
#4
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
John
“Would German troops on the ground prefer to face a force of IL2s going in at low level against them and taking out their positions, or a high level bombing force dropping bombs in such a pattern that there was a good chance they wouldn't get hit?” I know that this is off the topic but I’d anyway comment that. I really don’t know. If we look Finnish experiences, Il-2s did their worst against horse-drawn supply and even that wasn’t very decisive. Finnish light infantry battalions seemed not to be much bothered by them, but in one conversation I heard that an Il-2 attack had dispersed a line infantry coy which was waiting orders in rather open and stony terrain. On the other hand the terrain was one of worst kind for infantry and I know that at the same area an infantry battalion was almost wiped out by heavy Russian artillery concentration. And Finnish AA gunners thought that Il-2s accuracy was poor and 20mm AA troop had good chance against Il-2s. What was feared most was the very powerful Soviet artillery not Il-2s. And I think that Germans who had experienced Allied carpet bombing didn’t like that experience at all. |
#5
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
So, getting back to the subject, can we conclude that using some of its Me 262s in the bombing role was not an entirely irrational choice for the Luftwaffe to make in 1944?
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#6
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Nick
Of course it wasn’t entirely irrational, LW must try everything to hinder Allied ground troops but that’s a different thing that to say with a hindsight that that was a right thing to do. I have read a couple of British divisional histories and a couple of tank brigade histories and some memoirs of British tankmen and i cannot recall anything on being attacked by jet a/c, some mentions on attacks by 109s and 190s but they were usually ineffective. Only effective strike I can recall was LW’s night bombing strike against Orne? bridges on the first night after beginning of Operation Goodwood which according to the history of 11. ArmDiv, written straight after end of war, caused heavy losses among replacement tank crews which happened to be at target area on their way forward. No numbers were given though. Once asked on that attack on this board but nobody answered or at least nobody could give details on the attack on LW side. So can the efforts used in 262 jabo attacks be justified by results achieved. I really don’t know but doubt that. Juha |
#7
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
If we are concentrated only on the final efficiency of 262 jabo, there is of course the usual classical line of 'wrong role for the 262'.
But for those who have military background or at least some firm theoretical knowledge of air support, understand that 262 jabo was a correct decision. The result of of its use is unfortunate mix of expecting too much under the stress of poor avg. pilot jabo training, communication heer/lw, new technology, logistics and state of war. Just because you hit your fingers when using hammer, it does not mean that it is not the right tool for the job. |
#8
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
It seems to me that, all things being equal, a fighter-bomber that spends less time flying its mission (i.e. one that can make the round trip to the target faster) ought to have an improved chance of survival.
So far so good - a fast jet has potential in the role. But, if you are then so concerned to preserve the jet's secrets that you only allow it to bomb from 4000 metres or above (without a bombsight), as was done with the Me 262, then you have just squandered that potential - your aircraft may survive but it won't often hit any tactical target, so you may as well leave it on the ground and save the fuel. |
#9
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
If I remember correctly, the Bridge at Remagen was the only time German jet bombing missions (Me 262 and Ar 234) were used in a relatively sustained manner against a fixed target, heavily defended by Allied AA and fighter patrols. I don't have my references at hand, but if someone can shed some light on the missions, it might give the best indication as to whether the German jets of the time would have performed effectively.
As an aside, an Ar 234 nuisance raid against a RAF airfield in Belgium in 44/45 caused minor damage to RAF Meteors on the ground and was probably the closest thing to jet-versus-jet combat in WW2.
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- converting fuel into noise. |
#10
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Me 262 A-2
Hello Geoff
Here is a short excerpt from the rather dated The Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green concerning KG 51's raids against the Nijmegen bridge. "The Me 262s of KG 51 now began to make regular attacks on the strategic Nijmegen road bridge held by British forces, and fighter patrols and anti-aircraft defences were ineffective in dealing with them. The Me 262s flew singly and during daylight approached at altitudes of the order of 25,000 ft., releasing their bombs at about 18,000 ft. in a shallow dive. At dusk when viability was poor they went in at about 1,000 ft., diving to 500 ft. to drop their bombs, and at night they approached at approximately 12,000 ft. and dived to 8,000 ft. before releasing their bombs. Under these conditions of high speed and rapid changes of altitude heavy anti-aircraft artillery was useless, although the bombing was quite indiscriminate. Even though the attacks were little more than nuisance raids the fact that the Me 262s could attack at will was intensely annoying, and both umbrella and radial barrages were maintained around the bridge in an attempt to solve the problem, but failed to knock down one Me 262. Spitfire XIVs and Tempest Vs were assigned the task of patrolling the bridge, but enjoyed little success, and on most occasions when the RAF fighters did succeed in "bouncing" the jet fighter-bombers, the Me 262s were able to half-roll and dive away, or to climb away at a much higher rate than their attackers." Please remember that this is a dated source so perhaps new information will differ but perhaps this can help you. Horrido! Leo |
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