B-17 Fortress losses 17 August 1943 in Rosenheim-Wörgl-Brixen area

[Theo Boiten]

Dear all,

Who can help me with individual loss details of one, perhaps two, B-17 Fortress losses that occurred on the 17 August 1943 Schweinfurt-Regensburg missions in the Rosenheim-Wörgl-Brixen area ca. 13.45-50 hrs?

I'm hoping to tie these to the following fighter claims:

Lt. Ernst August Terborg: 2 3./NJG101 B-17 Rosenheim-Wörgl (EE 4-GE 1): 5.500 m. 13.46 victory confirmed on 8.5.44
Uffz. Werner Dotzauer: 1 3./NJG101 Fortress II Rosenheim-Brixen (EE 4-GE 2): 5.500 m. 13.47 victory confirmed on 8.5.44
Uffz. Werner Dotzauer 3./NJG101 Fortress II Rosenheim-Brixen (EE 4-GE 2): 5.500 m. 13.49 VNE: ASM. Note: rejected claim, probably interpreted by Abschusskommission as same claim as Uffz. Dotzauer’s Abschuss at 13.47 hrs


Thanks for any info, Theo

[FrankieS]

probably no B-17 crash in mentioned area ?



B-17 losses in Germany (minus those obviously not in that mentioned region)

275 430817 B-17 41-24453 LG-O Mizpah - The Bearded Lady / The Bearded Beauty 91 322 Kenner, Everett KIA 5, POW 5 Schweinfurt Vlatten ?56727 Mayen near CoblenzMayen
274 430817 B-17 41-24527 Sky Wolf 91 324 Schweinfurt Waldaschaff D
276 430817 B-17 42-5139 Chief Sly II 91 322 Schweinfurt ?Kembach ?Geisenheim D
282 430817 B-17 42-5437 Frank's Nightmare 91 401 Schweinfurt Mayen ? Hergarten
281 430817 B-17 42-5069 Our Gang 91 324 Schweinfurt ? Geisenheim oder St. Goar D
278 430817 B-17 42-29559 OR-Q STUP'N'TAKE-IT 91 323 Schweinfurt 3201 Langdorp ?BE ?D
279 430817 B-17 41-24524 Eagles Wreath 91 323 ArcGaro, Anthony KIA 3, POW 5 Schweinfurt 55296 Harxheim D
653 430817 B-17 42-29853 92 327 Euskirchen D
403 430817 B-17 42-30283 Mason's Morons 95 336 Mason Darmstadt D
679 430817 B-17 42-30070 LN S Tweedle-O-Twill 100 350 LT RONALD W BRALEY Regensburg - AC FACTORY Pulferingen
675 430817 B-17 42-5860 LD P Escape Kit Poontang 100 418 LT CURTIS R BIDDICK Regensburg - AC FACTORY Schweinsberg D
680 430817 B-17 42-30002 XR-F The WAAC Hunter / Damifino 100 349 Shotland, Henry P KIA 1, POW 9 Schweinfurt 68642 Bürstadt (Boxheimerhof) D
681 430817 B-17 42-30311 LN T unnamed 100 350 Hummel, Thomas D Regensburg - AC FACTORY Schornsheim D
303 430817 B-17 42-29839 351 510 Hansen, Helmuth F Schweinfurt Reifferscheid-Schleiden D
302 430817 B-17 42-5812 Cannon Ball 351 511 Pinkerton, M A Schweinfurt Bad Godesberg D
1350 430817 B-17 42-29830 WA-T Peter Wabbit 379 525 Wagner, Erwalt Douglas KIA 10 Schweinfurt 55442 Stromberg (2.5 km N) D
1763 430817 B-17 42-30309 FR-P Raging Red 379 525 Sexton, Jim KIA 1, POW 9 Schweinfurt 35641 Schöffengrund-Niederwetz D
1764 430817 B-17 42-30158 Mary Jane ll 379 525 Koeppen, H 2KIA, 8POW Schweinfurt ?Diets-Heur ?Abenheim ?BE ?D
1765 430817 B-17 42-30191 The Bolevich 379 525 Merchant, Donald W Schweinfurt Elfershausen 10km SW Bad Kissingen D
398 430817 B-17 42-29983 381 533 Schweinfurt Kesseling D
384 430817 B-17 42-3220 Damfino 381 535 Schweinfurt Marksteinach D
379 430817 B-17 42-30140 King Malfunction II 381 532 Painter Jack B KIA 1, POW 8, EVD 2 Schweinfurt 53902 Bad Münstereifel-Esch D
399 430817 B-17 42-3092 VP-T Strato Sam (Toughest Crew That Ever Flew) 381 533 Hudson James C KIA 1, POW 9 Schweinfurt 53947 Nettersheim Pesch D
380 430817 B-17 42-30028 Sweet-LeLani 381 534 Wright, Neil H Schweinfurt ?Düren ?Simmern, SW of Rheinbollen D
663 430817 B-17 42-29731 Moore - Fidite, Ol' Swayback 381 532 Jarvis, Leo P Schweinfurt Ebrach D
296 430817 B-17 42-29956 SU-B Vertical Shaft 384 544 Hausenfluck, Jesse D KIA 2, POW 8 Schweinfurt 56346 Sankt Goarshausen D
294 430817 B-17 42-30139 JD-O Snuffy 384 545 Sweningsen, Oliver Schweinfurt Stangenroth 10km NW Bad Kissingen D
292 430817 B-17 42-3222 JD-P Dueces wild 384 545 Mattes, Frank G Schweinfurt ?Reichenbach ?Sickerhausen D
293 430817 B-17 42-3230 JD-U Yankee Powerhouse II 384 545 Wofford, Drewry Fry POW 10 Schweinfurt Weiler D
387 430817 B-17 42-5914 Sack Time (Roger Wilco) 385 549 Reichardt Schweinfurt Hessloch Worms D
388 430817 B-17 42-30017 All Shot to Hell 390 568 Regensburg ?Bingen oder Wernberg (near to) D
390 430817 B-17 42-30316 Madie 390 568 Regensburg Bellheim D


B-17 losses Italy


400 430817 B-17 42-3194 Little Hell 95 334 Santa Margherita IT
676 430817 B-17 42-3232 LN V Flak Happy 100 350 Hollenbeck, Ronald W Regensburg - AC FACTORY Ghedi IT
682 430817 B-17 42-30042 XR L Oh Nausea! Shack Rabbits 100 349 LT GLEN S VAN NOY Regensburg - AC FACTORY Sicily (60 miles off) IT


.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........................................

possibly more up-to-date combat MACR list for that date (all a/c types, all countries):


possibly this one from list below ?
430817 682 B-17F 42-30042 _ 349BS 100BG 8 Van Noy, Glen S POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Brenner Pass-nr _
but: https://b17flyingfortress.de/en/b17/...usea/42-30042/

Crash Date MACR# Aircraft Type Aircraft S/N Aircraft Nickname Squadron Group AF Pilot Pilot Country MACR Location KU Location

430817 263 P-47C-5 41-6398 _ 62FS 56FG 8 Stultz, Robert M KIAKilled In Action HOLHolland Masstricht (HOL)-Hasselt (BEL) area Freeren/ 3km S of Tongern (Vreren [BAHA])
430817 264 P-47D-1 42-7891 _ 62FS 56FG 8 Day, Voorhis H KIAKilled In Action BELBelgium Maastricht area/Hassolt (BEL) Warsage nr Church/ 22km NE Luettich
430817 265 P-47C-5 41-6372 _ 63FS 56FG 8 Sugas, Arthur E KIAKilled In Action BELBelgium Ans Wolder (bij Maastricht) [NIMH](Rullen-Voeren [BAHA
430817 273 F-5A-10 42-12977 _ 17PRS 4PRG 13 Peterson, Roy L FODFinding Of Death SOLSolomon Islands Henderson Fld- at TO _
430817 274 B-17F 41-24527 _ 324BS 91BG 8 Munger, William S POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Aschaffenburg _
430817 275 B-17F 41-24453 _ 322BS 91BG 8 Kenner, Everett L KIAKilled In Action GERGermany {49.55N-09.00E} _
430817 276 B-17F 42-5139 _ 322BS 91BG 8 Gatewood, Joel W POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Aachen-10mi S _
430817 277 B-17F 42-2990 _ 322BS 91BG 8 Hargis, Jack A POWKTBD - definition pending GERGermany {49.38N-08.12E} _
430817 278 B-17F 42-29559 _ 323BS 91BG 8 Bennett, Charles A EVD Escaped from (evaded) the enemy GERGermany _ Langdorp-nr/Diest-13km W
430817 279 B-17F 41-24524 _ 323BS 91BG 8 Arcaro, Anthony G EVDPTBD - definition pending GERGermany _ Kessling/Rodder-nr
430817 280 B-17F 42-5225 _ 323BS 91BG 8 Von Der Heyde, Don S KIAKilled In Action BELBelgium _ Baelen-nr/ 3km SE of Moll
430817 281 B-17F 42-5069 _ 324BS 91BG 8 Wheeler, William H POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Eupen _
430817 282 B-17F 42-5437 _ 401BS 91BG 8 Weieneth, Arlynn E MIAMissing In Action GERGermany {50.14N-07.11E} Hergarten-2km W
430817 283 B-17F 42-5712 _ 322BS 91BG 8 Judy, James D POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Frankfurt-20mi SE _
430817 291 B-17F 42-30147 _ 544BS 384BG 8 Wilson, Clayton R POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Schweinfurt area _
430817 292 B-17F 42-3222 _ 544BS 384BG 8 Mattes, Frank G KIAKilled In Action GERGermany Schweinfurt area _
430817 293 B-17F 42-3230 _ 544BS 384BG 8 Wofford, Drewry F Jr POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany _ _
430817 294 B-17F 42-30139 _ 545BS 384BG 8 Sweningson, Oliver (NMI) Jr POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Schweinfurt _
430817 296 B-17F 42-29956 _ 544BS 384BG 8 Hausenfluck, Jesse D KIAKilled In Action GERGermany _ _
430817 300 B-17F 41-24564 _ 365BS 305BG 8 Mutschler, Douglas L KIAKilled In Action GERGermany {50.42N-05.42E} Averbode-nr/Diest-8km NW
430817 301 B-17F 42-30159 _ 366BS 305BG 8 McKeagan, Rothery (NMI) POWPrisoner Of War BELBelgium Louvain-5mi N Oostwalle-nr/Wegnes/Verviers-5km SE
430817 302 B-17F 42-5812 _ 511BS 351BG 8 Pinkerton, Max (NMI) POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Ruhr-S _
430817 303 B-17F 42-29839 _ 510BS 351BG 8 Hansen, Helmuth F POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Ruhr District-S _
430817 323 B-17F 42-30389 _ 331BS 94BG 8 Nayovitz, Bernard W KIAKilled In Action BELBelgium Liege Lummen/ 10km E of Diest
430817 365 F-5A-10 42-12977 _ 17PRS 4PRG 13 Peterson, Roy L FODFinding Of Death SOLSolomon Islands Henderson Fld at TO _
430817 378 B-17F 42-3225 _ 535BS 381BG 8 Disbrow, Lorin C POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Bonn-Aachen/between _
430817 379 B-17F 42-30140 _ 532BS 381BG 8 Painter, Jack B KIAKilled In Action GERGermany {49.50N-08.50E} Esch-nr/Muenstereifel-8km SE
430817 380 B-17F 42-30028 _ 534BS 381BG 8 Wright, Neil H POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Vegeland-nr _
430817 381 B-17F 42-30245 _ 534BS 381BG 8 Simpson, Welden L KIAKilled In Action GERGermany {49.50N-08.10E} _
430817 382 B-17F 42-29978 _ 534BS 381BG 8 King, Reinhardt M POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany {49.50N-08.10E} _
430817 384 B-17F 42-3220 _ 535BS 381BG 8 Smith, Harry M A POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany {50.30N-09.20E} _
430817 00387A B-17F 42-5886 _ 548BS 385BG 8 Sommers, Paul A POWPrisoner Of War BELBelgium {50.00N-07.35E} Woensdrecht-2km SW
430817 00387B B-17F 42-5914 _ 549BS 385BG 8 Reichardt, Leslie L POWPrisoner Of War BELBelgium {49.45N-08.20E}* _
430817 388 B-17F 42-30017 _ 568BS 390BG 8 Tyson, Ashbrooke W POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Wornburg-15mi NW _
430817 389 B-17F 42-3333 _ 569BS 390BG 8 Becker, Raymond A FODFinding Of Death MEDMediterranean Sea (all losses over the water where no coast locater is Given) Bone-50mi N _
430817 390 B-17F 42-30316 _ 568BS 390BG 8 Regan, James R POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Heidelburg-10mi S Bellheim
430817 391 B-17F 42-30315 _ 569BS 390BG 8 Rapport, Stephen P Jr INTINTerned in neutral country SWISwitzerland _ _
430817 392 B-17F 42-3305 _ 568BS 390BG 8 Shaver, Dale A POWPrisoner Of War SPASpain {43.30N-09.00E} _
430817 396 B-17F 42-3310 _ 568BS 390BG 8 Sneed, Wade H KIAKilled In Action MEDMediterranean Sea (all losses over the water where no coast locater is Given) Bone-25mi N _
430817 398 B-17F 42-29983 _ 533BS 381BG 8 Atkinson, Challen P KIAKilled In Action GERGermany {49.58N-07.42E} Kesseling-rn/Rodder
430817 399 B-17F 42-3092 _ 533BS 381BG 8 Hudson, James C POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany {50.45N-05.55E} Posch/Muenstereifel-6km SW
430817 400 B-17F 42-3194 _ 334BS 95BG 8 Hayden, Robert W POWPrisoner Of War ITAItaly {44.40N-09.55E} _
430817 401 B-17F 42-30176 _ 335BS 95BG 8 Sundberg, John L POWPrisoner Of War BELBelgium Belgium-10min inside Oostmalle-1km N
430817 402 B-17F 42-30274 _ 336BS 95BG 8 Baker, Walter A POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Eupen-S _
430817 403 B-17F 42-30283 _ 336BS 95BG 8 Mason, Robert C POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Regensburg _
430817 406 B-17F 42-30388 _ 429BS 2BG 12 Fisher, Carroll L Jr POWPrisoner Of War FRAFrance Istres-Le Tube A/D _
430817 407 B-17F 42-30314 _ 353BS 301BG 8 Cunningham, William J Jr KIAKilled In Action FRAFrance Marsielles _
430817 410 P-38G 42-13413 _ 48BS 14FG 12 Tompkins, Robert C KIAKilled In Action ITAItaly Cape Sparti Vento-8mi N _
430817 412 P-38G 42-13430 _ 48FS 14FG 12 Tarr, Jack L KIAKilled In Action MEDMediterranean Sea (all losses over the water where no coast locater is Given) Cape Sparti Vento-1mi off _
430817 413 P-38G 42-13146 _ 48FS 14FG 12 Texter, Harold I KIAKilled In Action MEDMediterranean Sea (all losses over the water where no coast locater is Given) Cape Sparti Vento-1mi off _
430817 653 B-17F 42-29853 _ 327BS 92BG 8 Stewart, J D POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany {50.40N-06.10E} _
430817 654 B-17F 42-3435 _ 327BS 92BG 8 Sargent, Roland L POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany {50.00N-06.00E} _
430817 661 B-17F 42-3227 _ 534BS 381BG 8 Forkner, Hamden L EVD Escaped from (evaded) the enemy GERGermany {51.10N-05.00E} _
430817 663 B-17F 42-29731 _ 532BS 381BG 8 Jarvis, Leo (NMI) POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Schweinfurt _
430817 675 B-17F 42-5860 _ 418BS 100BG 8 Biddick, Curtis R KIAKilled In Action GERGermany Frankfurt-nr Epplingen-nr
430817 676 B-17F 42-3232 _ 350BS 100BG 8 Hollenbeck, Ronald W POWPrisoner Of War ITAItaly Verona _
430817 677 B-17F 42-30063 _ 418BS 100BG 8 Knox, Robert M KIAKilled In Action GERGermany Frankfurt-nr Herbsthal-Lontzen/ 500m W of Schmalgraf
430817 678 B-17F 42-5867 _ 350BS 100BG 8 Claytor, Roy F EVD Escaped from (evaded) the enemy GERGermany Regensburg-10min from Oostwalle-nr/Wegnes/Vierviers-5km SE
430817 679 B-17F 42-30070 _ 350BS 100BG 8 Braley, Ronald W POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Nuremburg-Alps area Wakakov-10km SE (Laaland)/Ryde-nr
430817 680 B-17F 42-30002 _ 349BS 100BG 8 Shotland, Henry P POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Nuremburg-nr _
430817 681 B-17F 42-30311 _ 350BS 100BG 8 Hummel, Thomas D POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Bad Mergerheim-nr _
430817 682 B-17F 42-30042 _ 349BS 100BG 8 Van Noy, Glen S POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Brenner Pass-nr _
430817 683 B-17F 42-30080 _ 351BS 100BG 8 Oakes, Donald K INTINTerned in neutral country GERGermany before reaching target _
430817 1350 B-17F 42-29830 _ 525BS 379BG 8 Wagner, Erwalt D KIAKilled In Action GERGermany Schweinfurt Landmark Doerrebach/Stromberg-2.5km NW
430817 1763 B-17F 42-30309 _ 525BS 379BG 8 Sexton, James N POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany None listed _
430817 1764 B-17F 42-30158 _ 525BS 379BG 8 Koeppen, Howard O KIAKilled In Action GERGermany Schweinfurt _
430817 1765 B-17F 42-30191 _ 525BS 379BG 8 Merchant, Donald W POWPrisoner Of War GERGermany Schweinfurt Bad Kissingen-nr
430817 6604 B-24D 42-40348 _ 400BS 90BG 5 Freas, Charles R FODFinding Of Death NGUNew Guinea Wewak-nr _
430817 16186 B-24* _ _ 64BS 43BG 5 Morris, Robert (NMI) KIAKilled In Action NGUNew Guinea New guinea-off southern coast _

[Theo Boiten]

Many thanks FrankieS for sharing these details; I will try and find any (possible) matchings. Cheers, Theo

[RSwank]

I wonder if the difficulty in trying to match up a B-17 loss to a plane going down in the Rosenheim area is caused by the fact that the crew bailed out while the plane was some distance away, perhaps near Regensburg. The plane continued to fly on autopilot until it was shot down (without any crew on board) at/near Rosenheim.
Are there any details in the descriptions of the shoot-downs by Terborg or Dotzauer that mention whether they were fired at (or not), for example, during their attacks on the B-17?

I mention this as I was involved in researching (some years ago) a crash in Italy that had occurred in just that way.

[edwest2]

Some crashes did occur in that way. On MACRs, the phrase to watch for is "last seen," but there is no guarantee that this exact wording will be there. I recall an incident that occurred in 1968. It was determined that a B-17 had made a successful belly landing but continued on to slide into a ravine, where it was found by hikers in that year.

[Theo Boiten]

Thanks chaps for your observations. Unfortunately there's no further info on these German claims other than the short Abschussmeldung, no further (elaborate) Combat Reports etc. The Terborg and Dotzauer claims at 13.46-47 were both confirmed as full victories, which means that two individual Fortress losses in the claimed areas were found and matched to these two victory claims.

Cheers, Theo