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The Second World War in General Please use this forum to discuss other World War Two related subjects not covered by the main categories.

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  #31  
Old 10th April 2023, 16:03
HGabor HGabor is offline
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Thank you Nick, I just try to find out what really happened in the past with all available evidences. That's all.
Cheers,
Gabor
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  #32  
Old 12th April 2023, 09:56
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

In a few cases the dates are missing which makes it harder to verify a claim and even harder to negate it.
For example Hartmann's #347.
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  #33  
Old 12th April 2023, 12:33
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

If the date is missing, it is equally difficult to prove, or disprove a claim, - neither is harder than the other. However, there are visible tendencies for each pilot.
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  #34  
Old 12th April 2023, 13:14
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Sometimes also the claimed aircraft type is unknown, for example Hartmann's #346.
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  #35  
Old 12th April 2023, 13:33
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Agree.
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  #36  
Old 13th April 2023, 10:49
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Hartmann claimed a large number of Lavochkin fighters but a low number of Yakovlev fighters. I suspect he misidentified many Yakovlev's as LaGG-3's. They looked similar but the former were much more numerous in the second half of the war than the latter.
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  #37  
Old 13th April 2023, 13:14
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

In the final months of 1944 Hartmann fought with air units of the Soviet 5th Air Army (and perhaps the 17th Air Army). By the end of 1944 the 5 VA suffered heavy losses in their battles for Debrecen and Budapest, while the 17 VA was more or less intact, advancing in Yugoslavia and later in Southern-Hungary.

On January 1, 1945 the fighter forces of the 5 VA had:

83 Yak-1
109 Yak-9
16 Yak-3
130 La-5
20 La-7

(Book: 'Verified Victories', p.25)

The 17 VA had:

117 Yak-1
13 Yak-7
147 Yak-9
58 Yak-3
273 La-5
1 La-7

(Book: 'Verified Victories', p.27)

Gabor
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  #38  
Old 13th April 2023, 13:54
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

When Hartmann arrived at the front the short heyday of the LaGG-3 was over. But the Germans kept on identifying similarly-looking opponents as such. It's like Manfred von Richthofen & Co who named lattice-tail planes "Vickers" when certainly no Vickers F.B.5 planes were sent up anymore.
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  #39  
Old 30th September 2024, 22:08
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Re: The first ace to reach a certain score

Good evening,

update: I drop Eugène Gilbert from the list in the first post because only four of his claims were officially confirmed (although he likely shot down more than he was credited with). I also include Herbert Ihlefeld, who was the first to reach the scores of 116 and 117 in April 1942.

Have a nice evening,

Michael
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