Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44

[ZhekaB]

Do you have details how Emonet was shooted down?
AFAIK he was suprised and havn't pointed who shot him down?

And in my opinion clame of Ludwig Strobel at 7:40 looks more relevant to Emonet according to time.

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by ZhekaB

Do you have details how Emonet was shooted down?
AFAIK he was suprised and havn't pointed who shot him down?

And in my opinion clame of Ludwig Strobel at 7:40 looks more relevant to Emonet according to time.

Hello,



Emonet was shooteed down by a Me 109 he had not seem.

For Ludwig Strobel :

7.10.44 Ofhr. Ludwig Strobel 9./JG 51 Yak-9 £ 25 623: at 1.500 m. 07.40 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -



if the time is more concordant (I admit gladly being wrong in the hour), the location is much less favorable because 6 km south of the landing site of the pilot after his parachuting.
Knowing that the second shell has torn the half of one of the wings of the Yak that has entered a spin, the base must be in line with the fight.

After the locations of the fights are approximate ...

So for now, let's remember your hypothesis as most likely.

[focusfocus]

Hello guys

According to Mathews/Foreman, everything is faulse.
Jahnke did not claim anything on the day!
Windisch claimed a Yak-3 (08h05)near Turnu Romania!
michel

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by ZhekaB

Do you have details how Emonet was shooted down?
AFAIK he was suprised and havn't pointed who shot him down?

And in my opinion clame of Ludwig Strobel at 7:40 looks more relevant to Emonet according to time.

I didn't no why I didn't see it before but the best hypothesis is :

17 Oct 1944 Walter Jahnke 2./JG 52 Yak-3 500m 08:05 10h05 25454

The center of the squarre 25454 is 1,5 km to the north of the pace where was rescue Jean EMONET.

[ZhekaB]

Hello, Courtois!
Your hypothesis is quite realistic. But its weak point is time and altitude. According to the 303rd IAD's sortie log, Albert's group took off 09:15, returned 09:57; Puyad's group: 09:15-10:02; Matras's group 09:35-10:05. I don't know exactly which group Emone was in, but he was probably shot down around 09:45-09:50. In addition, the height of the Jahnke victory is 500m, while his group was escorting Pe-2 at 3000 m. But again, theoretically it could have been Jahnke.
Another interesting point: according to T. Wood's list this victory was won by Walter Jahnke, while in B. Barbas’s book it is recorded for Ofhr. Windisch. I am very curious as to how accurately the data in the T. Wood lists is recognized (from handwrited or typed records??)? My opinion there may be a lot errors in the time, squares, heights data.

By the way, I just had an article about circumstances, in which A.Hafner was killed on 17 Oct 1944:
https://warspot.ru/12325-posledniy-den-antona-hafnera
Maybe you’ll find it interesting...

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by ZhekaB

Hello, Courtois!
Your hypothesis is quite realistic. But its weak point is time and altitude. According to the 303rd IAD's sortie log, Albert's group took off 09:15, returned 09:57; Puyad's group: 09:15-10:02; Matras's group 09:35-10:05. I don't know exactly which group Emone was in, but he was probably shot down around 09:45-09:50. In addition, the height of the Jahnke victory is 500m, while his group was escorting Pe-2 at 3000 m. But again, theoretically it could have been Jahnke.
Another interesting point: according to T. Wood's list this victory was won by Walter Jahnke, while in B. Barbas’s book it is recorded for Ofhr. Windisch. I am very curious as to how accurately the data in the T. Wood lists is recognized (from handwrited or typed records??)? My opinion there may be a lot errors in the time, squares, heights data.

By the way, I just had an article about circumstances, in which A.Hafner was killed on 17 Oct 1944:
https://warspot.ru/12325-posledniy-den-antona-hafnera
Maybe you’ll find it interesting...

Hello ZhekaB,


All, my apologies for the delay, but I am currently writing an atlas of Normandy-Niemen and I force myself to read all the reports of the Soviet ground and air units which takes me away from the forums.

I am currently working on the Gumbinnen Offensive, and clarification on the daily counts of German planes by the ground troops.

Regarding Emonet, in the 303 IAD flight log: (Журнал боевых вылетов частей 303 иад). It was noted that 10 Yak-3 under the orders of Commander Pouyade took off at 9.23 am and that 9 planes landed at 10.00 am. (Emonet not returned).

What makes for the Germans taking into account the time difference: 7:23 a.m. to 8:00 a.m.

Indeed the Jancke Hypothesis is not very good.

We must therefore return to the hypothesis;

17.10.44 Ofhr. Ludwig Strobel 9./JG 51 Yak-9 £ 25 623: at 1,500 m. 07.40 Film C. 2032 / I Anerk: Nr. -

Greetings and happy holidays to all.


PS: if you wish, I will post on the gumbinen offensive with all the Soviet reports, my maps and my statistics.

[ZhekaB]

Hello, focusfocus!
There is one same claim. T. Wood gives it to W. Jahnke and Barbas gives it to Windisch.
Who is right? Did Mathews/Foreman have their source? or they just repeat Barbas? What is the name of Windisch?
By the way, the claim is not in Romania, but in East Prussia for sure.

[focusfocus]

Hello
NO it's in east prussia for SURE.

source:Mathews/Foreman

The last claim of Walter Jahnke is 08/16/44 at 2.25.p.m with 7/JG11 (53.)

Walter Windisch
15.10.44 2/JG52 Il.2 10km W Pristina 14h08 (first "abschus") Quadrat 13 345 (T.Woods)....wich correspond to Kosovo.

17/10/44 2/JG52 Yak-3 Turnu Severin Romania 08h05 (second "abschus")
nothing by T.Woods

Rudolf Trenkel
16/10/44 2/JG52 LaGG 20km ENE Trepca (Kosovo) Quadrat 13 126

17/10/44 2/JG52 Pe-2 Turnu Severin Romania 08h00 (Mathews) Quadrat 25 444 (Woods)

27/10/44 2/JG52 Yak-3 Majdanpek Serbia 15h10 (Mathews) Quadrat 25 583 (Woods)

The quadrat 25 ... does not correspond to Prussia.

Trenkel and Windisch were not in Prussia on 17/10/44...as well 2/JG52

the winner of Emonet is prob.Strobel...but it seems that the claims are not complete and confused.
Best Regards

Michel

[ZhekaB]

Hello, Michel.
I'm afraid Mathews/Foreman are wrong. 25E quadrat is in East Prussia and Trenkel with I./JG 52 was there. It is well corresponding with claims of groups located in East Prussia in that time: III./JG 52, I, III./JG 51. I./JG 52 has been moved from Poland 16.10.1944. Among other things it is proved by Trenkel's memories.

[focusfocus]

Hello

This Quadrat (25...) story not corresponding with the sayings of Mathews/Foreman intrigued me and INDEED the assertions of those (claims in Serbie/Romania for I/JG52,III/JG52) are FALSE!

These contradict themselves:ex.
I qote:Walter Windisch was shot down by Yak on 10/17/44 near Ebenröde (Prussia,today Nesterov)... and at the same time,he claimed a Yak near Turnu Romania!!!! wow!! well then!!....same finding of impossibility for all the claims of the I/JG52,III/JG52 (Serbia/Kososvo/Romania) in october 44.

I had an "almost" blind faith in their recent work about "Experts",but now it's reduced.

michel