P-51s vs FW-190s on 20/1/45 N. of Regensburg

[Adriano Baumgartner]

PS: Had forgotten to put the sites on last reply...there they are:
www.eagle-editions.com/jg300.htm
www.luftwaffe.be/miajg300.html
www.airpower.at/news04/0531_vyskov/vyskov3a.htm
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/reschke.html
http://www.amazon.com/Jagdgeschwader.../dp/0764321307
You will see the Herr Willi Reschke wrote his own War Memories. I did not read it yet, but it seems very interesting. Hope you will like the sites and books co-related here.
Friendly as ever
Adriano ( from Brazil )

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi Art!

I told you we would find out your victims. I must re-tell you that I am not a “hot shot” like some guys in the Forum, who already published books and had access to the German and Allied Official Archives; however I do read between 40-50 books per year, and the great majority is about WW2.

I find out some interesting FACTS at the book written by the famous historian Jochen Prien about JG 53 “Pik As”, vol.3:


24 JUNE 1944

“The Americans returned next day ( 24th ): 135 Liberators and equal number of fighters set out to attack Ploesti. All available Jagdgruppen were mustered to meet this attack, including the Gruppen ( Squadron ) of JG 52, SG 2 and SG 10 ( Fighter-bomber units equipped with Fw 190 F and G models ), which were based on the Eastern Front under the Command of Luftflotten 4 and 6. They were guided toward the heavy bomber formation by Oberstleutnant ( Lt-Col ) Neumann, commander of Fighter Sector Romania – such missions were code-named Star Flights. Also under command of Obstlt Neumann´s control there were several Romanian Fighter Squadrons based on airfields around Ploesti. Some of the Romanians were equipped with the Bf 109 and others with the IAR 80, a radial engined fighter of Romanian design.
I/JG 53 took off at 08:42h ( AM ) and at several minutes past 09:00 engaged the American formation. The 1st Staffel ( 12 aircraft ) was engaged by Mustangs of the Fighter Escort. Its commander Oberleutnant Rupert Weninger ( a 17 victories ace ) was pursued by P-51 to ground level and finally shot down near Giorani ( Bf 109 G-6, werknummer 163633 White 10 + ). Two other Bf 109 G-6 were shot down ( one by B-24 return fire the other for unknown reasons ).

28 JUNE 1944

A large force of B-24 with an escort of P-51 were reported heading for Bucharest. I/JG 53 was scrambled at 09:02hs; the Gruppe subsequently formed up, during which time they were joined by 6th Staffel of JG 301a and climbed in a southerly direction.
Apparently two pilots of 2nd Staffel of JG 53 were confirmed shot down by P-51 south of Bucarest:
1- Lt. Erich Gehring ( WIA – 10 kills ace ) crashed at Lamanda, South of Bucarest. Bf 109 G-6, werknummer 163594, codes Black 7+
2- Feldwebel ( Sergeant ) Rudi Franke ( WIA – 4 kills pilot ) crashed at Vida, SW of Bucarest. Bf 109 G-6, werknummer 163646, codes Black4+
It seems that 6/JG 301 lost also two pilots. They were to the right of JG 53 during the action. Both pilots were killed:
1- Lt Weber
2- Uffz Hett
It seems that nine B-24 and two P-51 were shot down! Did you Fighter Group lost any Mustang that day? We had to check out. I will try to find out more information on the JG 301 pilots also…

9 JULY 1944

In the morning 220 Fortress and Liberators in several waves with a strong escort of Mustangs headed for Romania; their target Ploesti and the refinery complex. Early in the morning the I Gruppe of JG 53 went to Mizil, the base of III Gruppe of JG 77. At 09:16hs the fighters were scrambled. Apparently only 6 Bf 109 from JG 53 took off. Only the Gruppenkommandeur, Major Hurjen Harder ( 65 victories ace, killed in action later during the war ) returned home. Here is his own account:
“ I am in a very depressed mood. Five aircraft accompanied me in today´s battles. I am the only one who came back though my machine was badly shot up, but I was not hurt. Hauptmann ( Captain ) Franz Bauer was shot down and burned. I have lost more than 20 aircraft in the recent battles. My proud Group has been reduced to 30 aircraft. We are so terribly outnumbered. 500 four-engined bombers and 300 fighters against barely 30 of our own! I no longer know what I am to do. What good is courage when a mission against such superior strength almost borders madness? If we at least had better machines, but….I would rather not fly again until the Group has 20 or more machines. I have had enough and I am not going to sacrifice myself for those….it´s better not to say”.
JG 53 losses for 9th July:
1- Hauptmann Franz Bauer ( 4 kills pilot ), killed NW of Amaru by P-51. Bf 109 G-6, Black 1+, werknummer 163606
2- Feldwebel Rudolf Schwonnek, killed by P-51 S of Mizil. Bf 109 G-6, Black 12+, werknummer 160888.
3- Gefreiter Rolf Rieschel, killed S of Mizil by P-51. Bf 109 G-6, Yellow 6+, werknummer 162321
4- Uffz. Heinz Hommes ( 14 kills ace ), baled out, shot down by P-51 S of Mizil. Bf 109 G-6, Yellow 5+, werknummer 162319.
There are two other losses also from 2nd Staffel ( Bf 109 G-6 ), but apparently the pilots baled out. There are no records on the names of the pilots.

The only claims are certainly NOT from JG 53. We had to check out the Heinkel He 111 and Junkers Ju 52 claims. Anybody who possess those famous ORB´s has any news to share with us on the Forum? Sir Nick Beale ( you are the specialist on Italian and MTO Fronts; maybe you could help Art and us to find out his claims ).

Sincerely and friendly yours

Adriano

[mayfair35]

Again to all you kind gentlemen, thank you for your information. When I first posted I had no idea I would receive so much interesting information that also corrected some of the details in my stories.

TO LAURENT: I hope you can understand that I want to contact Mr. Horta to ensure he wants details of encounters on this site. In addition, you know there are many Luftwaffe members who have much more interesting stories than my few. I do not want to insult them.

TO CARLOS: If you live in or near Santa Maria, we are fairly close. I live in Oxnard Shores. Were you at the 50th anniversary of the P-51 in Santa Maria? I was there with 2 other 325th pilots: Bob Barkey 6 victories, Bill Margetts who lost his engine over Czechoslovakia on 28 Dec 1944. He was badly injured during the crash landing (canopy knocked him out as he was preparing to bail out!). They made a video of several of us but nothing great. Carlos we have the annual Camarillo Air Show on the 18th and 19th of August this year. I usually manage to get about 20 pilots, aces, and crew members to sit in our booth. If you think you might be interested in attending, I will send you details as soon as they are finalized.

TO NICKM: I reread the article about Bob Goebel's victory over Ploesti on July 3, 1944 and compared it with his book. They track quite closely. FYI, Bob was credited with Me-109s on May 29, June 23, and a probable on July 2 in 1944. On May 27 he was credited with a Me-110.
July 3rd was his 42nd mission. Approaching Ploesti he spotted a gaggle of 15 Me-109s @ an estimated 26,000 feet. He states that two of them were close at his 1:00 o'clock. He attacked and tacked on the tail of a Me-109 that went vertical into what he terms a "kind of Cuban 8" and Bob followed him. He believes the Me-109 was using negative G evasive maneuvers. Bob finally got in a good burst on the fuselage and right wing following which the Me pilot bailed out. Bob then switched off his guns and using the camera, took a picture of the Me pilot in his parachute.
Hartmann tells the story in much the same way, although he states he had the low fuel light come on when he bailed out. He did not think much of Bob's shooting! Bob's film showed the hits and the pilot in his chute. As Bob flew by him, he raised his hand in a type of salute and took off. Hartmann tells of the pilot raising his hand but then says, "He registered an ugly face and then the American was gone." I wonder what "face" he could see with Bob's oxygen mask in place as we did not take our masks off from the beginning of the flight until home - our microphone was in the mask. The article states that Hartmann was shot down at least 14 times and although he claimed several P-51s, he is credited with 2 P-51 victories. I have read that he overclaimed, but it distresses me to see people questioning some victories after the pilot is dead. That is what happened with the Yamamoto shoot down also.
I believe Hartmann shot down a 325th P-51 as I recall reading a story about him in which he describes a P-51 blowing up and seeing yellow and black checkertail pieces all over the sky. Over Budapest, I was leading an element when the flight leader's wingman accidentally chopped off his tail. I could not believe how much of the sky was covered by the black and yellow checkertails so I believe the victory claimed by Hartmann was undoubtedly correct. If I had the date of this victory, I could check the name of our pilot.

Cordially, Art Fiedler

[Franek Grabowski]

Dear Art
First of all, you cannot say that your stories are less interesting. I would say all the stories are equally interesting, but only when told. Please, consider this an encouragement, as your record suggest, you have plenty to tell.
Concerning Hartmann - the problem is that his official records were unavailable and his memoirs are not so accurate, see the oxygen mask case already mentioned by you. In recent years some forgotten German records had been found in archives and they shed a new light on those matters, giving basic details on actual claims of Hartmann. Unfortunatelly, this only happened after Hartmann's death, so nobody was able to ask him about that.
I have dropped a note to Ruy, that you request his advice.
Very best wishes

[NickM]

Originally Posted by mayfair35

A
TO NICKM: I reread the article about Bob Goebel's victory over Ploesti on July 3, 1944 and compared it with his book. They track quite closely. FYI, Bob was credited with Me-109s on May 29, June 23, and a probable on July 2 in 1944. On May 27 he was credited with a Me-110.
July 3rd was his 42nd mission. Approaching Ploesti he spotted a gaggle of 15 Me-109s @ an estimated 26,000 feet. He states that two of them were close at his 1:00 o'clock. He attacked and tacked on the tail of a Me-109 that went vertical into what he terms a "kind of Cuban 8" and Bob followed him. He believes the Me-109 was using negative G evasive maneuvers. Bob finally got in a good burst on the fuselage and right wing following which the Me pilot bailed out. Bob then switched off his guns and using the camera, took a picture of the Me pilot in his parachute.
Hartmann tells the story in much the same way, although he states he had the low fuel light come on when he bailed out. He did not think much of Bob's shooting! Bob's film showed the hits and the pilot in his chute. As Bob flew by him, he raised his hand in a type of salute and took off. Hartmann tells of the pilot raising his hand but then says, "He registered an ugly face and then the American was gone." I wonder what "face" he could see with Bob's oxygen mask in place as we did not take our masks off from the beginning of the flight until home - our microphone was in the mask. The article states that Hartmann was shot down at least 14 times and although he claimed several P-51s, he is credited with 2 P-51 victories. I have read that he overclaimed, but it distresses me to see people questioning some victories after the pilot is dead. That is what happened with the Yamamoto shoot down also.
I believe Hartmann shot down a 325th P-51 as I recall reading a story about him in which he describes a P-51 blowing up and seeing yellow and black checkertail pieces all over the sky. Over Budapest, I was leading an element when the flight leader's wingman accidentally chopped off his tail. I could not believe how much of the sky was covered by the black and yellow checkertails so I believe the victory claimed by Hartmann was undoubtedly correct. If I had the date of this victory, I could check the name of our pilot.

Cordially, Art Fiedler

Art:

Thanks, NOW I remember that entry in Bob Goebel's bio! Funny it seemed so much longer in Hartmann's bio than in Goebel's; anyways, I guess I should have sprang for that Mag while I was at the airport eh?

Thanks a bunch...

NickM

[mayfair35]

Mr. Frank Olynyk
I hope everyone on this board is aware of the unbelievable job you did in listing the USAF victories during WW II. Your book is the one that everyone refers to when there is a question. When I sent an inquiry to the history section at Maxwell AFB, they quoted you as the AF position. During an AFAA reunion in I believe Tucson, I had the privilege of meeting you for a few short moments. I salute you for the absolutely outstanding book you produced.
As you know, the write-up for my 24 June '44 probable was completely wrong which may be due to the fact that no mission credit was given unless we reached 300 miles from the base. I do not know exactly how far I flew, but in my case they had to credit me with a mission otherwise how could I have gotten a probable? Thus the credit for reaching Ploesti!
A rather humours incident in conjuntion with my 3rd (?) victory: I was assigned to fly Herschel Green's bird (#11) and his crew chief was not happy about it. In fact as he was strapping me in, he told me."Best you bring this bird back in one piece, Lt.!" When I came in, did my victory roll and taxied into his revetment, he could not wait to get up on the wing, and gushed, "You can fly this airplane anytime you want, Lt.!" Of course that was the one and only time I did. I guess that was an example of how to win friends and influence people!
Cordially, Art Fiedler

[Frank Olynyk]

Art,

Many thanks for your kind words. I have in fact published Victory Lists for all the US services and all its wars. Hopefully I can get them back in print "real soon now".

I remember us meeting, but it must have been at Mesa (closing of the Champlin Fighter Museum?) because I do not think the AFAA has ever met in Tucson -- the Champlin Fighter Museum was always available.

Perhaps we can meet again at another convention. Or perhaps in Sept at the Gathering of Mustangs and Legends in Columbus, Ohio.

Enjoy!

Frank.

[mayfair35]

Hello Again Adriano,
Thank you for all your detailed information. I really appreciate it. Referring to the 24 June mission, I was returning early with a rough engine at between 20 to perhaps 23,000 feet. Somewhere over Jugoslavia while flying beside the bomber stream which was on the way to Ploesti, I was shocked to see 6 or 7 Me-109s lined up beside the stream preparing to attack the B-24s. I immediately decided to make a head on attack (I was higher than they were) and shoot them all down. Ha Ha, no one has a monopoly on being stupid. As I dove on them, they began their passes and by the time I got there, there was only one left. He began his pass, and I had to pull 4 Gs to get on his tail which blew out my gunsight bulb. I then opened fire jockeying around trying to figure out where I should be aiming. Here is the picture. I am firing at the Me-109, he is firing at the B-24s, and the B-24s are firing at both of us. Never saw so many orange bees flying through the air in my entire life and realizing that there were at least 3 or 4 that were not tracers, I had a great appreciation for what the German pilots went through when attacking bombers.
I finally started hitting him but not sure whether he caught fire or it was his coolant streaming out. Followed him to 15,000 feet as he tried to dive away but then had to return to the bombers. It was a court martial offense to go below 15K. That was a probable victory. I have the mission report for 24 and 28 June if you are interested plus the 9 July one.
An English gentleman, named Sadler, was also interested in trying to determine whom I shot down and came to the conclusion that on 28 June, it was Lt Gehring and on 9 July it was Uffz Hommes. The problem was that he tried to connect the times of my victories and probable location with the reports of the German pilots. Although these may be correct, if so it would only be by chance.
Let me explain. Our combat map was about 10 inches high and about 3 inches wide. That covered from our base to Berlin and from France to Greece. It had 2 sides but we mostly used only the part that covered Austria, East Germany, Hungry, Czeckoslovakia, Poland, Bulgaria, and Roumania (the Eastern part of Europe). Major cities, rivers, and railroads were shown. From 30,000 feet I had no difficulty knowing exactly where I was. But in a fight, I had no time to refer to a map or a clock for the time and so when we got right down on the deck, it was a guess as to what direction we had been flying and and how long. I think this is mostly guess work as in combat I am sure the seconds passed far more slowly than during normal flight so most of us have a limited ability to give that kind of information. We usually depended upon the bombers to say where they were attacked, or where we began the engagement and how it went from then on.
Would you like me to post the mission reports for the above?
Cordially, Art

[mayfair35]

Laurent reference you 31 May message.
My 4th victory was on 26 July, probably near Graz. Our mission was PTW for the 55th Wing (B-24s) which were the 2nd wing of bombers from the end of the bomber stream. The 5th Wing (B-17s) were the last bombers in the stream. We were between 27,000/ 28,000 feet and were overtaking the bombers when the FW-190s attacked. The story of what happened is told by a writer from the 419th Bomb Squadron/301st Bomb Group plus my story is included. The book is no longer in print, and I have no idea if one can quote something from it on the net but will try to contact the author and if he is still alive (I don't think so) ask for permission to reprint it. It is a dramatic story and gives a great perspective of the hell the bombers went through and the boo boos my group made. Laurent I find it impossible to give you a maneuver by maneuver description of my actions and in fact when I was interviewed by Dog Fights, I had to use my hands. Of course you know fighter pilots would be mute without their hands!!
This is a good place to ensure you know that I DID NOT WALK ON WATER! I made far too many mistakes but was able to recover and live to fight. In addition, because of this forum, I have looked more carefully at my encounter reports and my Form 5. They are often incorrect. My probable victory on 24 June was over Jugoslavia but Intelligence wrote it up that I was over Ploesti and in a flight of four! I never got to Roumania and was all alone when I encountered the 109s. I hope the info in my Form 5 (flight record) is more accurate. I know how the problems occurred. At mission debriefing, they took notes which sometimes were not transcribed for a week or more. Since we never saw the reports, we did not have an opportunity to correct them. I wished now that I had insisted on seeing them.
Cordially, Art Fiedler

[mayfair35]

Erich in reference to your 3 June inquiry:
After 30 June 1944, all my flights were in the P-51D. My first combat mission was 13 June and my Form 5 says I flew 7 combat missions in the P-51C. During that time, I had the one probable (24June) and 2 victories on (28 June).
On 30 June I came out to fly the mission and on the revetment was a brand new P-51D with #35 and "Helen" on it. I had no idea we were getting new aircraft. I feel in love with it and its far better visibility.
Erich our squadron patch was made up way before I was in the squadron. I have no idea by whom or when. Our checkertail motif was approved in North Africa while flying the P-40s. There was lots of opposition from higher hqts but we were able to get permission from the "Head" and so it passed.
Cordially, Art