Henschel HS-123

[marsyao]

rldunn, I am a Chinese, and I study chinese history, and I knew the statement "it did supply numerous aircraft accessories, parts and equipment" is wrong, come on ! because lack of part, only 3 of 6 He-111A0 could be committed into combat in 1937, the other 3 had to be stripped for parts ! and compared to the military aid chinese received from Soviet, Germany was NO LONGER the major military supplier after 1938, if you like, I could give you a list what Chinese received from Russia after 1938.
By the way, USA was not a major military supplier for China in 1939, their role would became overwhelming important after 1942, so why compare them to Germans in 1939 ? though it was very interesting to know that Chinese still received German weapons from Burma, a British Colony,in Sep/Oct 1939, after WWII broke out in Europe, what is your source ?

[rldunn]

Come on indeed. The data support my previous posts. If the 'right' parts did not get to China that's too bad but the export data clearly shows Germany exported much aviation material to China. China often hoarded supplies rather than using them due to internal rivalries. I don't know if that is the case with the He 111's. They were basically poor early versions of that a/c palmed off on the CAF by the Germans. Please don't use such generalizations when factual data exists that is contrary. You may not know the facts but that is no reason to deny them.

You may wish to research details on exports from Germany to China before making sweeping assertions. I've given you the hints if you are open-minded enough to accept them.

I note you didn't challenge the assertion that Germany remained a major arms supplier in 1939 once I provided some data to that effect. Rest assured similar data exists with regard to aviation supplies. Believe what you will (or do the research yourself!).

Rick

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Hi
The text about Hs 123 in China was edited in Militaria i Fakty, Polish magazine, earlier was edited in France - Air Magazine. It was a little corrected by me during translation into Polish. The main aim of the author was to show the route/hsitory of the plane from Germany to China with this type, with some information about German personel in China. There are no so many info about it use in ChAF, some info, which are there are taken form Chinse sources but it is a few information.

Henschel Hs 123 in China.Henschel Hs 123 w Chinach (translations of the text written by Rudolf Hőfling - Austria), p. 3, 5 b&w photos, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 2 (27)/2005.

Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski

[Mirek Wawrzynski]

Some next coments.
This text in Chinese web side with some photos of Hs 123, had been written most probably with the support of French version written by Rudolf Hofling material. If I am rith the firs edition of it was in French Air Magazine no 23, (Jan 2005). At least 5 photos on the web are the same as in this French text, and also the same with four photos in Polish version. Rudolf had an acces to previous not yet edited photos, which were published the first time exactly in his text.

I have done an error about this Wydawnictwo Militria no 4. I do not know this a book, or a text (?).
The color of Chinese Hs 123s on the Chinses web side is not good, if you look at the photos printed below or above. Pure fiction.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

[mars]

rldunn, "open mind" is a two-way street, I would not claim I am an expert of the CAF in WWII, but I indeed "know" something about aircrafts used by CAF in the war, so :
1. I assume "China often hoarded supplies rather than using them due to internal rivalries." was one of your little joke, if it was not, well, I have nothing to say besides suggest you to read some related book written in Chinese.
2.and again, no, neither aicrafts nor any kindo fo aviation material from Germany played any important part in the Sino-Japanese war, even those Hs-123s were soon forced to withdraw from front line because of lack of parts !
3, I may disappointed you here but if you read my previous post, you would see I stated clearly that "Germany was no longer, repeat NO LONGER,a mjor arm supplier to china after 1938, so I DID STILL challenge your assertion, sorry, even after you provided your data.

By the way, I was still interested the fact that Germany still could transport arm to china via Burma after WWII broke out in Europe, this, I really want to know your source.

[mars]

By the way, if you could read chinese, here are two excellent books:
抗日战争时期中国空军的飞机 (Aircrafts used by CAF in the Sino-Japanes War) by 陈应明
浴血长空-中国空军抗日战史(Blood in Sky: Combat history of CAF in the Sino-Japanese War)

[Oldpilot]

I could give you a list what Chinese received from Russia after 1938

I for one would be interested in that information (in broad terms)!

Note that materiel arriving at Rangoon in Sep/Oct 1939 would have been shipped before Britain and Germany were at war. It's an interesting question as to what the British customs officers at the Rangoon docks would have made of it (wouldn't they have impounded the freighter, or was it neutral?)! And just because it arrived is no evidence that it was forwarded up the "road" to Kunming. Was the Burma Road even open in the early fall of 1939?

But really, the British has a motive to let it travel onward--it cost them nothing, put China in their debt, and benefited Germany not at all.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Coming August 21: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942

[marsyao]

sure, oldpilot, according to Chinese source, Germany stopped her military supply to China in May 1938, there were some secrect delivery after that, but not in any large scale, Germans certainly did not want to upset Japanese because of Chinese ! Because of combat losses,lack of spare parts for aicraft, and the difficulty of maintianance for ridicously so many different type of aircrafts. CAF almost ran out of combat aicrafts at the end of 1937, now the traditional source of Weapon, Germany and Italy, were stopping their aid, America had not transfered her industry to war time system, British and French had their hands full at Europe, the only help had to come from Soviet, that was a rather bizare relationship, because Soviet supported Chinese Communist in the civil war, the relationship between Russian and Chinese Central goverment was not good, but at that time, Soviet faced Nazi Germany at west, and Japanese at East, they faced a real possibility to fight a two-front war,Russian obviously considered that a Japanes fought in China was a Japanese could not give them trouble to them, so that the help they gave to Chinese at that time was very generous, a 250 million US dollars loan (some other source said 500 Million US dollars loan) in low interest, talking about aircrafts, between end of 1937 to October 1941, Soviet supplied Chinese 900+ aircrafts with large amount of engine, parts,bomber and all kind of areo-ammunition, the first patch of Soviet war planed arrived in China and fought at battle of NanJing in Dec 1937. For further detail, I need go home and check my book

[rldunn]

Dan has pretty much answered the shipping question. The passage from Europe to Rangoon was in excess of 50 days. A ship arriving from Europe at the end of Sept 39 would have set sail in Aug 39 or earlier. The british would have had no reason to interfere with goods bound for China coming into Rangoon on a ship of a neutral country no matter what their origin. The Burma Road was open but it was so inefficiently run that there was a backlog of many months of supplies on the Rangoon docks awaiting shipment up the road to China.

The source of data in my earlier post is customs data for the Port of Rangoon.

With regard to hoarding there are many examples. One brief reference can be found in the comments of Vultee representative Warder in part 4 of this article.

http://www.wardirdforum.com/dunnp661.htm

RLD

[rldunn]

Try

http://warbirdforum.com/dunnp661.htm

sorry, got b and d mixed up