VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Berlin time = Moskow time + 2 hours.

3:30 (BT) = 5:30 (MT, as listed in all info I posted above).

Source of all lists: look 1st post.
"Расколотое небо. Май-июнь 1943", Олег Растренин.
("Broken sky. May-june 1943", by Oleg Rastrenin) ISBN: 9785699221783. 84x108/32, 320 pages. Releice date: 25.06.2007.

Oleg Rastrenin have great authority as specialist of assault aviation (Il-2 aircratft, units, pilots, organisation, operations during WW II). He has several books in russian, and 1 in english.
Il-2 Shturmovik Guards Units of World War 2 (Combat Aircraft) by Oleg Rastrenin
http://www.amazon.com/Shturmovik-Gua...1787481&sr=8-1

[Nokose]

If the VVS was attacking the target at 04:15(Moscow) on the 10Jun43 and II/JG3 made their first claims against the Il-2's at 03:20 it would be Eastern Europe time. Other wise it would be nearly a hour to the target and attack before the first claim could be made at 05:20(Moscow). Certain Luftwaffe units seem to use Berlin and others Eastern Europe in their claims it seems.

[Evgeny Velichko]

About times (to clear the situation):

Time, mentioned in reports (see above with each raid) is :

TIME OVER TARGET. That mean, if Il-2 need to fly to his target for 30 minutes, and tome over target is (for example) 5:00 (3:00 German time), he will take off in 4:30 (2:30) german time. Then it takes (usually) 5-10 minute over target, and he is landing at 5:40 (3:40 German time).
Then:
If group of Il-2's was intercepted BEFORE it reach the target, Luftwaffe may claim victoryes from 4:30 to 5:00 (in german claimlists it will be from 2:30 to 3:00).

Claims over target are around 3:00 (german time).

Claims, when group of Il-2 was going to base will be listed (for example in Tony Woods lists) as from 3:00 to 3:30.

It is just example.

Actually, german fighters could attack 30 minutes BEFORE Il-2 (or A-20, or Pe-2) will come to target, and continue ther attacks during 30-40 minutes (and even longer - even following to landing airfields of Il-2's).

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

I glanced through my copy of the JG 51 book by Anders/Held and I did not see any pilot losses listed for JG 51 on either 8 June or 10 June 1943. From Evgeny's information, it would appear that the authors did not include the loss of Gonzales on 8 June so perhaps there were some pilot losses in fact.

Horrido!

Leo

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello all,

This is a very interesting subject.

Have some data on 8 Jun 43 relating to II./JG 3:

Claims:
08.06.43Oblt. Joachim Kirschner5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 266: at 200 m.05.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45008.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 60 224: at 1.200 m.05.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45108.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 69 223: at 1.000 m.05.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45208.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-3£ 61 213: at 3.000 m.11.12FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51308.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 218: at 3.500 m.11.14FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM08.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3Yak-1£ 62 799: at 4.000 m.11.15FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28408.06.43Ofw. Josef Schütte5./JG 3Yak-1£ 61 267: at 2.500 m.11.17FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45308.06.43Ltn. Franz RuhlStab II./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 217: at 4.000 m.11.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 28508.06.43Oblt. Werner Lucas4./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 243: at 2.800 m.11.22FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 51408.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 316: at 3.800 m.18.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45408.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 315: at 300 m.18.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM


10 June 43:
10.06.43Ltn. Gerd Schaedle6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 612: at 1.500 m.03.18FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Hermann Schuster4./JG 3Il-2£ 61 657: at 200 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Ltn. Horst Brock5./JG 3Il-2£ 61 872: at 50 m.03.20FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 45610.06.43Ltn. Ernst-Heinz Löhr6./JG 3Il-7£ 61 649: at 100 m.03.23FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 27510.06.43Uffz. Waldemar Eyrich6./JG 3LaGG-5£ 61 622: at 200 m.03.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: ASM10.06.43Fw. Hans Grünberg5./JG 3Yak-1£ 70 318: at 3.500 m.05.25FilmC. 2032/IIAnerk: Nr. 437

Best wishes,
Rob

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hi guys

I glanced through my copy of the JG 51 book by Anders/Held and I did not see any pilot losses listed for JG 51 on either 8 June or 10 June 1943. From Evgeny's information, it would appear that the authors did not include the loss of Gonzales on 8 June so perhaps there were some pilot losses in fact.

Horrido!

Leo

Hello Leo,

at least in the Ader's book published in 1977 no Spain losses was included in the loss List of JG51.
What publish Year from your book ?

Best reards

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Kalender

I looked and my copy dates from 1977 as well. Obviously this information was excluded from that version. I wonder if the later (1985) version includes Spanish losses?

Horrido!

Leo

[kalender1973]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

Hi Kalender

I looked and my copy dates from 1977 as well. Obviously this information was excluded from that version. I wonder if the later (1985) version includes Spanish losses?

Horrido!

Leo

Hi Leo,

I do not seen the 1985 version.

Best regards

[yogybär]

Thx for the time of the attack. I knew about the 2hours difference Moscow-berlin. So, it fits. Good!

I have the Adrs/Held book from 1985, it is a pure reprint afaik. No losses mentioned for that day.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Addition to

1 VA raid to Sescha 20:20 - 20:25.

Some combat reports.

Main attack was leaded by 2 Officers of 198 shap: Major M.Z. Bondarenko (CO 198 shap) and Kapitan V. Malinkin (CO 2nd eskadrilya of 198 shap). Both of them were very skilled pilots. Bondarenko , one of the most scilled VVS shap pilots and CO's, gain his first combat expirience in Winter War, and to june 1943 had ~200 combat mission, HSU (6.6.42). Malinkin joined VVS in 1940, was an instuktor, participated in GPW from first day. At time of his death 13 july 1943 under guns of Hptm.Herrmann, he had 10 german fighters at his score, ~ 200 combat missions, and large ammount of ground targets destoryed.

From combat report of 198 shap:

Groups of 198 shap start theyr attack on Sescha at 20:24 - 20:25. On the ground they saw: ~20 twoengined aircrafts in NW part of airfield, ~30 two- and singeengined aircratfs in N part, ~20 singleengined (probably fighters) aircratfs in E part of airfield, and in S part - ~15 covered twoengined aircrafts.

Attack started from altitude 800-900 metres from 25-30* dive (pilots used RS-132 rokets), followed to 300metres (crews dropped theyr HE and Splitter bombs), and to low level strafing (using 23mm VYa and 7,62 ShKAS). Exit from attack was in SE direction.

Crews spotted: as result of direct hits of RS-132 3 two engined aircrafts burned in NW part of airfield, and more 3 - in the center of airfield. On the N part of airfield spotted 2 big explosions, with altitude of flame and smoke to 250-300 metres (as noted "one explosion of black color, another - orange-red") It is beleived large fuel and ammutition depots exploded. Also, in the N part of airfield large group of ground personal (or pilots), ~50 peaple, who runed from building (probably from officers dining room) were attacked by VYa and ShKAS.

Fighter escort of 309 iap noted "18 fires in the area of aircrafts, and several strong explosions".

Report of U-2 crews of nightbomber regiment, wich flew to Sescha in night 8.06 - 9.06.43, "several large fires continued untill the morning"

Airfield was covered by german fighgters. First attack was made in area Chekalina Sloboda, in 3 km from Sescha airfield. German fighter were trying to drag escort from Il-2's, and then attack leaders of Il-2 groups to split theyr formation.

Leader of 1st group, Major Bondarenko, came under attack straight over airfield, when 2 Fw190 attacked him in Head On. After attck Bondarenko turned to heading 70*, and was attacked by another 2 Fw190. Defending his life, gunner of Bondarenko crew, Kapitan Bessmertnov, was badly wounded in head and in both legs, but could shot down one Fw190 (wingman) from very close distance, as stated "enemy fighter overturned on low altitude, and burning crashed to earth in area of Zagorjye (6km E from station Rekovichi)". Fw190 (leader) stopped his attack, climbed to left and went off.

After that Il-2 of Major Bondarenko was attacked by lone Bf109, who made totally 7 attackes, chasing Il-2 to Lyudinovo area. Enemy fighter made attacks from 6 oclock below, from distanse 100-200 metres. As a result Il-2 was badly damaged engine, and tail control cables. Bondarenko himself was woinded, but could emlanded at Krasny Gai airfield.

Second group of Il-2's, leaded by Kapitan Malinkin, was intercepted 2 kms before airfield Sescha by 2 Fw190. German fighter made unsuccessful attack from alt 1000metres on the Il-2 of Malinkin with angle 3/4-4/4. After that Fw190 (leader) exited from attack in front of Il-2 group and started slight right combat turn. In that moment Malinkin turned his Il-2 a little to right and opened fire from distanse 70-100 metres from VYa. Fw190 exploded, lost parts of wings and crashed in the swamp near airfield Sescha. Victory was confirmed by Kapitan Pitzkhelauri and St.Lt. Volkov, wingmen of Malinkin.

Aircraft of Major Bondarenko:
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000geq0

I beleive that He111's, destroyed and damaged at airfield Sescha, were 198 shap crews "job".

Best wishes!

P.S. Sorry, my english is not perfect.