German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[HGabor]

Alfred26,

Good point! On October 23, 1944 the soviet 5 VA lost 4 IL-2s to fighters indeed. So all claims reliable that day! 5 VA, 131 GvShAP lost 3 IL-2s, (S/N: 10620, 302820, 1873563), the 132 GvShAP lost one (S/N: 18753100). Since the 3rd 131 GvShAP IL-2 (S/N: 1873563) returned -and broke- on its base, it was either Düttmann's or Stein's victory, as Lipfert's both victims (S/N: 10620 and 302820) crashed in the battle area for 100%. (1st exploded, 2nd lost its tail.) So the 3rd returned and was a write-off, but the gunner was missing! They found traces of blood in his seat. He either fell, or jumped out from the plane during the mission. The plane returned only with the pilot. Originally it was only damaged during the fight, but finished-off on the base. It was a write-off, probably used for parts later. It is interesting, that the 131 GvShAP lost an IL-2 from all 3 main IL-2 factories this day:

1xxxx from Factory No.1 at Kuybishev,
18xxxxx from Factory No.18 also at Kuybishev and
30xxxx from Factory No.30 in Moscow.

On October 27, 1944 the airfield of Debrecen was strafed by about 6 Fw 190s and 8 Bf 109s. As a result a Yak-1B and a Yak-9M fighter of the 5 VA, 513 IAP was destroyed, 7 Po-2 biplanes of 930 NBAP, 2 IL-2s of 451 ShAP and another 3 unidentified planes of the 18 TAP were damaged. Several people died or wounded as well. A La-5FN and a Yak-3 was lost during the missions as well as probably two 207 OKRAP IL-2KRs. No details on their mission, only personnel losses, so I do not know. Note that the 207 OKRAP lost 4 airmen this day. Since it was a mixed Recce. regiment, flying IL-2KR and Yak-9 Recce. planes too, these losses could be 2 IL-2s -OR- one IL-2 and two Yak-9s! As I have no plane data for 207 OKRAP for this day, anything is possible. Maybe a single IL-2 loss as 'yours' plus 2 Yaks for other German claims. I have no idea. No other known permanent 5 VA IL-2 loss this day anyway.

See, the soviet papers are tricky. Mechanical papers reveal plane info without crew names. Personnel papers give crew data without plane info. Regiment journals give a bit from each. So in order to get a full view, you need to see a whole arsenal of documents, as opposed to the American MACRs where practically everything is together for the case. Soviet research is like a puzzle. Very interesting, but takes lots of time and patience.

Cheers,

Gabor

Gabor, thanks ! Very interesting !

Yes, it is very likely that downed Il 2 and two Yak 9 were part of the 207 OKRAP.
May be able to find more information about the events of that day, knowing the name and surname of dead pilots (eg. databases WWII losses or other sources) ?

Two other plane (La 5FN and Yak 3) were also lost in combat missions? The pilots of these planes were lost ?

Best Regards,
Alfred

[HGabor]

Mechanical paper of 5 VA, 207 OKRAP lists two (Omsk, Factory No.166-built) Yak-9D and one IL-2KR recce. plane loss between November 1-15, 1944. Chances are these 3 planes were the losses on October 27, 1944 as prev. days' losses - depends on how long investigation and paperwork took:

IL-2KR, S/N: 10948, AM-38F engine: 256676
Yak-9D, S/N: 19166066, engine: 415-1037
Yak-9D, S/N: 19166078, engine: 415-90

So it looks like the 4 airmen lost on October 27, 1944 flew 2 Yaks and one IL-2 indeed. This is based on the plane info only, no combat details, even if their names are known.

Both La-5 and Yak-3 pilots survived the battle and were taken POW.

Gabor

Gabor, great thanks !

Best Regards,
Alfred

[Johannes]

Hi

Regarding Tony Woods not listing Barkhorn's 3 X Il-2 for 16th November 1944, he did make five claims that day, one of his biggest ever, but as mentioned before the micro films are only partial at this point, and only the fighters were listed for Barkhorn this day.

Regards

Johannes

[HGabor]

Szentgyörgyi Dezső (in Bf 109G, code: W-1+77) and Tóth Lajos (both from 101/2. squadron) claimed 1-1 La-5 at Bicske in the morning. Szabó József (101/4. squadron) claimed a La-5 separately on another mission during the day. So the 3 Hungarian claims were NOT scored together on the same mission, but on two.

Szentgyörgyi Dezső and Tóth Lajos (the two leading Hungarian aces) probably downed the first two 530 IAP La-5s of the day at 9:15 and 9:30 at Bicske-SE. (La-5FN, S/N: 39211920 and 39211023.) Soviet flight had 4 La-5s, their leader was Ivan Petrovich Vashenko of the 3rd squadron. 2 La-5s were lost, the other 2 La-5s, including Vashenko returned. Vashenko was shot down on the very next mission after refuelling at 10:30 near Martonvásár!!!!

Szabó's reported La-5 victim is unknown. As no details on the German times and locations, only Lipfert's claim can be identified. But it looks 100%.


The five 17 VA, 194 IAD, 530 IAP La-5 losses on January 4, 1945:

09:15 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211920, tactical ‘20’, piloted by ml.l-t Fedor Fedorovich Orlovsky (OK). - Bicske area at 3500 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) crashlanded after the battle far away in the South, near Cece. Plane broken, pilot OK. Probably Tóth's or Szentgyörgyi's victim.
09:30 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211023, engine: 8212014, tactical ‘23’, piloted by ml.l-t Aleksandr Petrovich Dyakov (KIA). - Bicske area at 3000 m. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.) Probably Tóth's or Szentgyörgyi's victim.
(These two were probably in the same battle with the same planes)

10:30 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211488, engine: 82111529, tactical ‘88’, piloted by Ivan Petrovich Vashenko (OK). - Martonvásár area. (4 La-5 against 8 Bf 109.)

11:20 - La-5FN, S/N: 39211399, engine: 82111418, tactical ‘99’, piloted by ml.l-t Aleksei Stepanovich Suhorukhov (KIA). - Tarján area. 6 530. IAP La-5 covering 14 639. ShAP IL-2. (Downed by Lipfert for sure at Tardos-Tarján)

14:55 - La-5F, S/N: 39215048, engine: 65033077, tactical ‘48’, piloted by ml.l-t Maxim Yakovlevich Efimov (KIA). - 6 La-5 covering 12 IL-2 near Bicske at 800 m. Shot down at Bicske-NW, 12 km in dogfight.

.................................................. ...........................

When calculating claims, let's not forget that 5 VA, 279 IAD, 92 IAP also lost a La-5FN, S/N: 39213325, engine: 82131274, tactical '25' at Budapest, Ferihegy airport when crash-landed with battle damages after a mission at 15:20. Pilot, ml.l-t Vasilii Fedorovich Panov was OK, plane was later repaired.

Gabor

[HGabor]

I have already told earlier that matching pilots has never been the centre of my research. To find false claims, we would need to go through every single German-Hungarian claim. I have no time for this and I am not planning it. However, eg. I recall a La-7 claim from Tóth Lajos on March 9, 1945, which cannot be verified from soviet sources, even if it was verified by a witness from his own flight. It was a high altitude dogfight and the falling plane probably did not crash, but recovered near ground level and returned home.

But I also found REAL VICTORIES, which have never been approved, - two of them have never been reported! Sure, false claims are more frequent than these rare cases. But for instance, I found two more victories for Hungary's top scoring ace, Szentgyörgyi Dezső. So far he was credited 33 victories and I found two more for him. (Certainly all the previous claims still should be verified.)

For instance, on March 20, 1945 he downed a La-7. But until the new soviet documents, nobody knew, that this downed La-7 -while pulling into the clouds-, in the next few seconds collided with his wingman and as a result, BOTH 5 VA, 179 GvIAP La-7s (S/N: 45210501 and 45210353) crashed - some time apart!
Both pilots bailed out and laded safely, therefore they are not listed in the regiment's personnel losses. (OBD)

What to say now? Szentgyörgyi saw, reported and then got credited for only one La-7, but now from the new documents we know, that due to his action two La-7s failed to return from their mission! Interesting, isn't it?

History is sometimes much more complicated than we think. And I think this is just the tip of the iceberg...... I am sure much more interesting things will be found along this fascinating road...
Cheers,

Gabor

[GMichalski]

thanks HGabor, it´s enough for me

kind regards

[HGabor]

Folks,

Here is the list to the question about Fábián István, Hungarian Bf 109G ace. First claims on the Eastern Front, plus 1 (+2 unsure) claims on American planes in the summer of 1944. His list has a few confusing points, therefore it still needs further investigation.

Claim No., Date .....Reported AC ...Real victim

07 ….. 13.11.44. Yak-9 ……….....A veeeery messy day. Probable Yak- victory at 14:48, but cannot match for sure to any losses. (Too many options from 5 VA, 13 GvIAD and 331 IAD.)
08 ….. 21.12.44. La-5 ………......Found no permanent loss, but: I know the 17 VA, 194 IAD La-5 losses only between December 25, 1944 and VE-Day. Based on location it could be a 194 IAD plane, so still needs investigation!
09 ….. 16.01.45. Pe-2R ………....Overclaim. Plane escaped with 56 hits and landed on one wheel at Madocsa. 17 VA, 39 ORAP, l-t Makarov crew.
10 ….. 16.01.45. Yak-9 ………....Yak-3, S/N: 2917, 17 VA, 288 IAD, 659 IAP, ml.l-t Galkin (KIA)
11 ….. 19.02.45. La-5 ………......La-5F, S/N: 39215021, 17 VA, 295 IAD, 164 IAP, ml.l-t Emec (KIA) Crashed and broke at landing after the battle, having serious combat damages.
12 ….. 19.02.45. La-5 ………......La-5??? - Most likely an overclaim, no close match in soviet records.
13 ….. 13.03.45. IL-2 ……….......Probably IL-2m3, S/N: 1877483, 17 VA, 306 ShAD, 951 ShAP, l-t Tumashev (KIA) crew. (A Close case, but details match for only about 75%. Needs more investigation.)
14 ….. 19.03.45. IL-2 ……….......Probably IL-2m3, S/N: 18835124, 17 VA, 136 ShAD, 989 ShAP, gv.ml.l-t Buryakovskii (KIA) crew. (A Close case, but details match for only about 75%. Needs more investigation.)

Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,
many thanks
about 21.12.44 i have other date:

20.12.44 Sgt La 5 Me 109G 101/2 FS Pilote Edr 10

my info comes from:

http://www.cieldegloire.fr/008_fabian.php

maybe your info is the correct....

regards