German overclaims in the East. Hartmann and others...

[researcher111]

Gabor

Like always thank you for your details and deep information, your historical work is highly appreciated at my end.

[HGabor]

You're most welcome! By the way, 42-54223 crashed at Arad (Oradea) airfield... I think this is for you

Gabor

[researcher111]

Gabor

Do you have complete details on 42-54223 ? was it with 244 BAD or with 218 BAD ...I have no tracking details at all....was it Oradea Decampeni ? I think 453 BAP was at that time with 5th BA rather 17 BA ? But you never
know because units from 2nd to 5th and 5th relocated to 17th and vice versa due to specific front needs and that makes the Russian BA's research a pain in the neck.

[HGabor]

Sorry, i'm busy now, but it was 5 VA, 218 BAD, 453 BAP:

"Вылетел с аэр. Медиаж на аэр. Арад. Из-за тумана посадка в поле. Самолет разбит, экипаж цел./Переброска лс и лидирование истребителей. в рне 1 км южнее Кебермеш. В акте самолет 254223, моторы 42-154065, 42-154199."

So crashed near Kevermes, Hu at the border, while approaching Arad. (5 VA papers are messy, 17 VA docs are better, having more details. Probably I have to review details again.)

[researcher111]

Great stuff Gabor, let me look into it....I will revert to you with some details ....as into into the rest take your time no real rush at my end

[GMichalski]

hi,
thank you for this great info Gabor,
i search these days about German and Hungarian pilots also in other claim of Pottyondy i found only few data:

14.01.45 Cpt Boston Me 109G 102/2 FS CO Pilisvorosvar 10

seems that losses in January 45 were in all causes:

January Boston losses: 5 VA 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 1, AAA: 2, Accident: 2), 17 VA 15 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 10, AAA: 2, Accident: 3)

but your info is always the best...

about colleague with Nokose, maybe in the future, but now i only ask questions that he always responds....thanks Nokose

I am very grateful with all of you,

regards

[HGabor]

Dear GMichalski,

Yes, you are correct. Pottyondy had a Boston shot down on January 14, 1945 over Pilisvörösvár, which crashed at Rákospalota, Budapest-NE. The target was the Royal Palace of Buda, - the German HQ. and stronghold. The soviet formation crossed the Danube just north of Budapest and at the Pilisvörösvár 'IP' Bf 109s of the Hungarian 101/8. squadron, including Capt. Pottyondy ambushed the bombers. The downed Boston was another 5 VA, 453 BAP A-20G, S/N: 42-54166, piloted by 1Lt. Grigory Rodionovich Voevodin. (They both were well trained and brave pilots with lots of combat experience. Voevodin's crew of 4 survived the crash-landing with 2 WIA onboard. The Boston was a total write-off from 5 VA service by the next day, on January 15, after being examined by soviet ground-crews. The plane received over 120 hits in the dogfight, lost hydraulics, an aileron, broken nose-wheel, deformed cockpits, etc. It is all in the loss report of А-20Ж Бостон №254166) Note: this particular Boston (42-54166) has a great and detailed tail photo at http://www.fold3.com/ while on the way to the USSR in 1943. It is still in Alaska, U.S.A. with other A-20 Bostons and P-39s. (Lend Lease transfer)

But let me ask, if this Boston statistics is from my book, called: "Bostons in the Hungarian Sky and soil (1944-1945)" - just got published last summer? (original title: Bostonok a magyar égen és földben (1944-1945)

These losses are in a chart on p.84 EXACTLY the same way! On p.90 there is the drawing of the formation and air-battle in which 42-54166 was shot out from the right-back 'Tail-End-Charlie' position by Capt. Pottyondy László. On p.92 you can see both Pottyondy's and his victim's photo (portrait) side-by-side... This book lists ALL 222 soviet A-20 Bostons fighting in the skies of Hungary (plus partially over Rumania, Austria, Yugoslavia and Slovakia). All Boston serial numbers are listed too in the quarterly 218th and 244th BAD mechanical aircraft inventory-reports to the VVS HQ by:

October 1, 1944
January 1, 1945
April 1, 1945
July 1, 1945

Losses and battles are described in a very detailed way with the names of the crews. Color profiles show the color markings of 5 & 17 VA A-20 regiments and several pages of (first time published) photos show the planes of the stories. See here:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=35383

My book also gives lots of data on soviet B-25, IL-2, La-5, La-7, Yak-1, Yak-9 and Yak-3 losses of the 5, 17 and 18 VA in 1944-1945. Serial numbers, engines, crew names, claims, etc. Book is in Hungarian, but the charts, graphics and photos are easy to understand.

It can be ordered (in English) from Magó Károly (Charles Mago) at:

zuhanobombazo@gmail.com

It is about 6000 HUF (about 20-25 EUROs) plus shipping. He will let you know the transfer details.

Gabor

[GMichalski]

hi,
sorry but i don´t have your book, i take the info from:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=34056&page=3

but seems a interesting book, maybe my problem is the language

I will point to the next to buy with some of
Shores, Prien, Boiten, Foreman and Barbas

i search my info almost all in webs...

regards

[HGabor]

Oh, OK, now I remember. No problem, I was just curious. Cheers,

Gabor

[Nick Hector]

GMichalski,

Noted. In a way, it proves what I was saying. Whereas I hold to the contention that the wrecks resulting from the other pilots' victories were counted in his tally on 12.8.41, it shows that he did not convince his chain of command that these were real victories (for right or for wrong). Result: unconfirmed. I guess some pilots were more convincing. Original source of some of the loss info is Nokose. http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=33810