Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion

[Csaba B. Stenge]

There were some evasives and escapes by Hungarian crewmembers as well. Two famous aces swam the Dniepr as well to reach the German lines in September and October, 1943, respectively (György Debrődy was shot down behind Soviet lines on 25 September, 1943 then Lajos Tóth on 3 October, 1943)

[David Brown]

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command.

I believe George is referring to a "kangeroo-court". It is rare for such a court to document and have regard for the law since it acts on its own authority.

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
It is unlikely if not impossible.

Henry Fielding said it best about people who are prone to using absolutes. "Impossible - a word which in common conversation, is often used to signify not only the impropable, but often what is really very likely, and sometimes what hath certainly happened; an hyperbolical violence like that which is so frequently offered to the words infinite and eternal; by the former of which it is usual to express a distance of half a yard (or metre), and by the latter a duration of five minutes".

[George Hopp]

George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command. It is unlikely if not impossible. Most of PoWs execution were on the spot, in the heat of combat, just like a well known execution at Dachau performed by GIs. There is still standing question, where, when, and where are the bodies. And I am curious if your friend mentioned any executions by Canadians?

Since when does murder have to make sense? The German PoWs were marched up before an officer behind a desk, labelled war criminals and then marched off and shot. No one bothered to interfere because they didn't much care for the Germans either, and the Poles were fanatical about this. Hey, when the "good guys" carry out war crimes, the bodies disappear -- just more of Normandy's rich farm land.

[RT]

Killing of prisoners, is something that today is well accepted, at least from one side, the praised movie of Spielberg upon Normandy hv minutes long of prisoners killing, it looks that makes very funny the killers

rémi

[pelagonia]

As far as the Italian front in 1944-45 is concerned, I remember reading that Poles were particularly hated by German parachutists, since it was well known they never took prisoners. Now I do not know if all these stories about trigger-happy Poles are true or not, but considering what Germans did to Poland, I think such a behaviour would be quite understandable.

[Franek Grabowski]

Olve
A book of Szymon Datner entitled Zbrodnie Wehrmachtu na jeńcach wojennych w II wojnie światowej (Wehrmacht crimes against PoWs during WWII), Warsaw 1961, deals with the problem. It is in Polish but I cannot exclude there was a German edition in GDR. It testifies that eg. lynches on Allied airmen were inspired by highest levels.

George
It is not that easy. Allies were interested in German PoWs even if only as a source of information. Also, any such events could lead to repercussions against Allied PoWs held captive in Germany. Otherwise it is nonsense. What for to bother with a desk, if everyone was to be shot? It is illogical to say the least. And if there was a desk, there should be a paperwork, but there is none. And bodies cannot disappear, but there is no evidence of their existence. Here is the key to the problem.

Pelagonia(?)
This perfectly recalls the case of German paratroopers murdered at Monte Cassino described by Der Spiegel in 1980. The problem was that those paratroopers reappeared to testify they were not murdered and that they were well treated.

[odybvig]

Thank you Franek

Olve

[RT]

The answer of Franek is quite interesting, nd as in the Forum all the guys are trully smart people, we received them well

But really is a book published in Poland concerning germany, at a time where Poland was fast directly governed by the soviets or their men in , a reference ???

We would maybe prefer some document, with stamps nd so and ordering to murder the prisoners, as a matter of comparison we could start with the french campaign, is there any difference in the matter both sides treated the prisoners ?? there is a bad story at Le Paradis, but really a will at work to decimate the prisoners ???

We are all agreed in the fact that the germans are more aggressiv at that time...

Rémi

[George Hopp]

George
It is not that easy. Allies were interested in German PoWs even if only as a source of information. Also, any such events could lead to repercussions against Allied PoWs held captive in Germany. Otherwise it is nonsense. What for to bother with a desk, if everyone was to be shot? It is illogical to say the least. And if there was a desk, there should be a paperwork, but there is none. And bodies cannot disappear, but there is no evidence of their existence. Here is the key to the problem.

Canadian soldiers saw these outrages happen, and were told by their officiers to ignore it. Like it or not that's what happened. Simply one little episode in a multi-million casualty war. You weren't there, but my friend and his buddies were, and saw it happen. What happens to bodies? Anything the winner wants to have happen to them.

[Franek Grabowski]

Remi
There is no reason to put in doubt Datner's research in this respect. It was a neutral subject at the time. The first executions happened in Poland in 1939, the most well known being massacre of Polish PoWs at Ciepielów. The question is if thise were soldiers' initiative or inspired by higher command. It is worth to note that most of the crimes were committed by Wehrmacht and not Waffen SS, which palyed minor role in the campaign.

George
My uncle was there, 11th assault engineering coy, but I cannot ask him anymore. This is not the point. The point is that there must be some evidence, as there is in multiple cases of other such incidents. As yet in this case we do not even have reputed time and place, not to mention any evidence.