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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#61
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Re: German & Allied radar
You are entirely missing the point. The fact of availability of a number of fighters does not mean anything. Important is, where they are, ie. how many in reserve, how many in training units, how many in operational standard, how many actually engaged. There were two-three groups regularly involved in combats, those being 10, 11 & 12. Compare this number to the number of aircraft actually based on French coast.
Numbers of battle were a subject of several interpretations, depending on the need of the time. That is why BC and CC aircraft are usually omitted from statistics. Oh, the fact that the paper comes from Maxwell does mean nothing. |
#62
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Re: German & Allied radar
Quote:
I think the whole point is the RAF had more fighters in operational standard to actually engage the Luftwaffe. That is what I gathered when I read my copy of the RAF's report on fighter strength, establishment, and wastage. This is also separately confirmed in the RAF’s won official history of the battle. That is one of reports referenced in the United States Air Forces Journal of Logistics. Obviously you don't like what you are reading from the RAF. All the best, Crumpp |
#63
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Re: German & Allied radar
The total number of fighter a/c the RAF had 'on the books' has nothing to do with how many were actually available to actually engage the enemy. The 10 airfields (15 Sqds) in 13 Group for example were too far removed from the action over south-east England to send a/c.
Luftwaffe Order of Battle--August 1940 Establishment Strength Serviceability Bombers 1,569 1,481 998 Dive-bombers 348 327 261 Single-engine fighters 1,011 934 805 Twin-engine fighters 301 289 224 Reconnaissance 246 195 151 Ground attack 40 39 31 Coastal 94 93 80 Total 3,609 3,358 2,550 Aug 10 1940 Strength Summary Number Type Strength Svcble 42 1/3 Kampfgruppen 1482 1008 9 Stukagruppen 365 286 1 Schlachtgruppe 39 31 26 Jagdgruppen 976 853 9 Zerstrergruppen 244 189 3 Nachtjagdgruppen 91 59 14 Seefliegerstaffeln 240 125 http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...g40.html#13Aug The LW had ~2700 a/c (bomber types and fighters) based in France vs how many RAF fighters in south-east England? In mid Aug, 11 Group had 23 Sqds, 10 Group had 10 Sqds and 12 Group had 15 Sqds. Not all of 10 and 12 Group could be used. So around 600 fighters were available to intercept the LW attacks. The LW had, at a minimum, an advantage of 4:1. |
#64
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Re: German & Allied radar
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#65
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Re: German & Allied radar
Let’s do some rudimentary statistics based of the numbers presented in this thread:
RAF, using their figure for comparative burden of operations: 10 Group – 7 squadrons @ 22 A/C each 11 Group – 18 squadrons @ 22A/C each 12 Group – 9 Squadrons @ 22 A/C each We will just pretend that 13 Group isn’t doing anything operationally despite RAF records contradicting this assumption. 34 Squadrons * 22 A/C each = 748 Single Engine Fighters According to the RAF’s own paperwork, they were able to maintain extremely high operational strength of their squadrons due to the efforts of the CRO.. We will just use 80% although the Wastage report says this was higher. 748 A/C * .8 = 598 A/C available to combat the Luftwaffe. Luftwaffe figures: Luftwaffe Order of Battle--August 1940 Establishment Strength Serviceability Bombers 1,569 1,481 998 Dive-bombers 348 327 261 Single-engine fighters 1,011 934 805 Twin-engine fighters 301 289 224 Reconnaissance 246 195 151 Ground attack 40 39 31 Coastal 94 93 80 Total 3,609 3,358 2,550 The Luftwaffe maintained a far lower serviceability rate hovering around 50%. 1011 Single Engine Fighters * .5 = 505 SE fighters. The Luftwaffe had to maintain a serviceability rate at a minimum of 59% to match the RAF numbers. There is no source that shows the Luftwaffe was able to approach anything close to a 60% serviceability rate during the battle. There is little doubt that as the RAF’s documentation says, the RAF started the battle with numerical parity in Single Engines fighters and quickly moved to numerical superiority. All the best, Crumpp Last edited by Crumpp; 31st August 2008 at 01:12. Reason: used the correct figures for the LW |
#66
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Re: German & Allied radar
Sept 7 1940
on hand - serviceable Single-Engined Fighters Stab/JG 1Pas-de-CalaisBf 109E43 Stab/JG 3Pas-de-Calais33 I/JG 32314 II/JG 32414 III/JG 32523 Stab/JG 26Pas-de-Calais43 I/JG 262720 II/JG 26Northen France3228 III/JG 262926 Stab/JG 27Etaples54 I/JG 273327 II/JG 27Montreuil3733 III/JG 27Sempy3127 Stab/JG 51St. Omer54 I/JG 51St. Omer, St. Inglevert3633 II/JG 512213 III/JG 51Pas-de-Calais4431 Stab/JG 52Laon/Couvorn21 I/JG 522117 II/JG 52Pas-de-Calais2823 III/JG 523116 Stab/JG 53Northen France22 II/JG 53Wissant3324 III/JG 53Northen France3022 Stab/JG 54South Holland42 I/JG 542823 II/JG 543527 III/JG 542923 I/JG 77Northen France4240 Certainly better than the 50% you state Crumpp. Quote:
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#67
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Re: German & Allied radar
Hello Crumpp
where you got the number 22 a/c for FC sqns? It's not realisitic, the sqn was supposed to have IIRC 15 fighters plus 3 immediate reserves and on 14.9.40 11 Group Spit/Hurri sqns had between 10 to 19 serviceable Spits/Hurris each. Juha |
#68
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Re: German & Allied radar
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#69
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Re: German & Allied radar
Quote:
Source? Do you know what an outlier is and its meaning? All the best, Crumpp |
#70
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Re: German & Allied radar
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The numbers of operational sorties are listed by the RAF's documentation I posted. It is pretty obvious from the comparative sortie rate that the RAF did reinforce as needed among the Groups. On the 15th of August we can see the outlier for 148 Operational sorties for 13 Group, a significant contribution to RAF's effort. All the best, Crumpp |
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