Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Servus Roland and Matthias,

OK, I didn't think of Erla until now. Plauen isn't that close to Leipzig, or is it? No other thoughts right now, I will ponder on that one tonight....

And one last thought for tonight: were all Bodenwöhr - Cham airframes dispatched to assembly areas with this unique feature of having a snake-like RLM 76 pattern on the unpainted bottom of their fuselages? Is there any known variation for this producer? Beyond the W.Nr. blocks in the 334 0xx range mentionned by you, Carl, any other known W.Nr blocks?

Cheers
Marc

[D.B. Andrus]

The Plauen photo shown is the one I posted to LEMB regarding re-confirmation of Erla K-4 production. The black arrows indicate areas of note.


http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...showtopic=8540

Best Regards,

D.B.

[Charles Bavarois]

Gentlemen,

for this discussion the following infos might be of interest:

Final-acceptance for K-4s was done in Vilseck only for Blocks 330.xxx, 331.xxx and 332.xxx. For certain reasons some a/c of the last block were accepted at Regensburg-Prüfening, which was not a regular location for this.

Blocks 334.xxx and 335.xxx were shared between Vilseck and Cham.

The fuselages at Pauen railroad-station are for Erla-Leipzig. I do not have access to my documents, but I think I remember Plauen as location of fuselage-pre-assembly.


And now for Wertheim:

According to AI-report A-331 US-Forces found not 25 but 34 Bf 109s (and a Me 262) at Wertheim. Looking at the Werknummern of these 16 were newly built K-4s, the rest were older G-6 and G-14s. So what?

Wertheim was not part of the well documented production facilities of one of the three main producers. Wertheim was part of the Bf 109 repair-industries under supervision of Fertigungskreis F2 (which was headed by Messerschmitt AG). Repair was done there by Flumann GmbH („Flugzeugwerke Mannheim“) at least from summer 1944 onwards. Flugkapitän Anton Riedinger did some acceptance-flights there. Flumann had a BAL at Wertheim airfield, which is very near to the Schlossbergtunnel. Output perhaps was around 35 to 50 a/c a month. There was a „Zivillager“ for workers at Wertheim. The German „Zivillager“ points towards a camp for foreign-labour-workers, not for POW or KZ-prisoners.

Why then new K-4s at Wertheim? Due to weather conditions, short daylight periods and soaked airfileds during Dezember 1944 to February 1945 there were piles of finished Bf 109s standing around waiting for acceptance. Marauding allied fighters did not make things easier. To get rid of this problem, „repair-industries“ temporarily was charged with doing some acceptance-flights for Messerschmitt. We have to assume, that small numbers of finished airframes were carried to Wertheim (and elsewhere?) by rail, completed and flown in. So Wertheim for a very shot time did some work for Messerschmitt, but actually never was part of the Messerschmitt infrastructure.


HTH


Carl

[RolandF]

Thanks Carl, for this striking explanation of the Wertheim Bf109 production - or let´s better say "final assembly"
This explains why Flossenbürg-camoed K-4s appear here, the "snake"-sprayed 109s coming obviously from Bodenwöhr. The winter season can be very hard in our part of Germany and I remember a picture of W.Nr.332 707 standing in heaps of snow.
But something else must have happened in the Vilseck - Amberg-Schafhof area in this months. A/B 43 and A/B 121 ceased to train pilots in January 1945 and from mid-February on IV./SG 151, 7./SG 151 and 10./SG 151 took their base at Schafhof, thus changing to an operational airfield. Not a good place for acceptance flights.
But the K-4s standing on the "Holzrückeweg" look as if the engines had been removed in Wertheim or on the way there. Bad weather conditions on transport? As the production pictures show, the Bf109K-4 fuselages left Flossenbürg with completed engine units. Are there any explanations?

Matthias, there´s a direct railway leading from Bodenwöhr to Vilseck via Schwandorf junction (heavily bombed on April 17, 1945) , Amberg(passing Schafhof airfield) and Neukirchen.

Regards

Roland

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hi D. B.,

Both thanks for bringing back to my memory the origin of the uploaded pic, much lighter the the Footnote one, and sorry if this caused any annoyance to you. I'm also thankful for having the Erla K-4's peculiarities brought back to my memory. I just wonder how many other pics showing elements or half finished Erla K-4's do exist in the US Army files. Would love to have some research time in front of me, but alas... gallo-roman archaeology and Museum life are a relentless issue...

Carl,

I can only concur with Roland about your masterful answer! Thanks fro sharing your knowledge wich gives us the global dimension and organization of the Wertheim assembly area, especially as discovered by the US troops on 2 April 1945. I do also appreciate very much the insight you give us about the breaking down of W.Nr blocks by production places, and the known fly-in activities.

Roland,

Thanks for settling Matthias's question; all is then very logical, and it will certainly help for pinpointing the photographed location of the Bodenwöhr snake-pattern K-4 fuselages heaps (posts #9 and #11).
As for the engineless Wertheim airframes confronted to the Flossenbürg pictures showing only airframes complete with DB 605 engines and cowlings, this is not a unique occurrence. Think of those two pictures (Noro 2009, 103 #138, and the one posted by Carl, post #27) showing a line of six+ engineless fuselages with Flossenbürg - camouflage pattern neatly stacked in-line along a "location unknown Holzrückerweg". The sunny atmosphere does contrast with the Wertheim serie of pictures, this Holzrückerweg being much closer to open space then the Wertheim one. So you have at least a second location with the same issue: engineless K-4's fuselages completely camouflaged... What might be the cause of this discrepancy? I would suggest a breakdown of the DB 605 D supply chain to some of the Flossebürg affiliated Waldwerke, leaving no option but to send the airframes to locations where waiting engines could be mated (like in Wertheim?). Let's hope that further photographic evidence remains to be discovered either at the NARA or at the PRO, giving us more factual information illustrating those fascinating issues.

Cheers
Marc

[D.B. Andrus]

Hi Marc-Andre

No offense taken, just trying to help clarify the Erla fuselage situation.

Very glad you started this thread...it's starting to show light at the end of the tunnel.

Best Regards,

D.B.

Sorry for the pun, couldn't restrain myself.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Yup D-B.,

Good to have some pun after such a high flight inquiry. I just love it :-))

Roland, Matthias, Carl,

Any new information about the location of DB 605/AS or D production plants? Any thoughts about the engine supply lines between January and April 1945? There must be a rational explanation for this line of engineless Flossenbürg Bf 109 K-4's... and those Bodenwöhr engineless airframes at Wertheim, of course.

Cheers
Marc

[masmar]

Hi Marc,

no idea as yet. The engine supply chain is completely fadded out in all publications I own. Maybe they were delivered by Daimler directly, that's why Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg only brought the fuslages into the assembly.
I bought the already on LEMB mentioned book of Timo Bullemer "Das Kriegsende in Cham: Ereignisse und Entwicklungen - November 1944 bis Mai 1945". The book is pretty intresting, but unfortunately contains not to much new info on the Michelsdorf airfield. It says, that the G.I.s found 50 fighter aircrafts when taking that base in Michelsdorf. Now I try to find out if they would fit to our pictures. The author writes that there exists a collection on the Michelsdorf airfield at Cham town administration. That would be intresting to see. There is also a nice picture of damaged a FW 190 lying in a meadow. In the beackground a Bf 109 in same bad conditions is visible. Unfortunately the picture is very low sized.

regards

Matthias

[RolandF]

Matthias, did you see the photo I´ve posted in adifferent thread? Do you have any additional information about the source of this pic?

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=18913

Concerning the the engines I´m rather convinced the fuselages left Flossenbürg as complete units, i.e. with the DB 605s attached. All available photos prove this assumption. Without the engine, its bearers, the wiring and other necessary accessoires the firewall between engine compartment and cockpit looks rather "clean" and "empty" on all photos showing this assembly status. The Wertheim fuselages feature all those parts with loose wiring ends but without the engine. Even the canted struts supporting the engine bearer - which make only sense in the very moment when the DB gets fitted - are already attached.

http://www.koelzsch-restauration.de/.../Me-109_04.jpg

For unknown reasons the engines were removed somewhere between Flossenbürg and Wertheim IMHO.

Concerning the producers of the Daimler-Benz engines I have to pass this question to the experts. I only can say that just as the tail units the engine covers were built and painted at different locations. That´s why the camo areas and grey values don´t fit together on most Flossenbürg fuselages.

Regards

Fran

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Servus Matthias und Roland!

Thanks again for both your inputs. Any chance for you to pay a visit to the Cham municipal administration in the near future? Sure it would be great to see all this primary documentation. One wonders how many more Bf 109 K-4 pics did survive May 1945... 50 of them found there in 1945? Good to know. I surmize they all had their engines...

Roland, coming back to this engine issue, I don't doubt the Flossenbürg machines had theirs: the pics published by Poruba and Mol 2000 that you so kindly uploaded are self-explaining. But how is it then possible to explain what US photos do show: factory-fresh engineless Bf 109 K-4's fuselages both with Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg camouflage patterns? Are there any clues to support your theory and observations (engine fitted fuselages as documented in Flossebürg and then dismantled at Wertheim, post #44) against mine (out-of DB 605/AS or D Waldwerke sending their finished fuselages to other workshops still supplied by Daimler-Benz?, post #40)?

Here again my two cents based upon the available pictures analysis:

A. Wertheim (Noro 2009, p. 101, *136, #post 11; Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 40, added here): Both pictures documenting the state of assembly ahead of the firewall bulkhead reveal the same situation: a substantial amount of wiring and boxes are affixed on the bulkhead's lower portion + lower engine bearers only are bolted to the firewall; the upper engine bearers are missing. This fits perfectly with the picture showing the 6+ DB 605/AS or D on their trolleys published by Carl Hildebrandt (Hildebrandt 1988, p.9, post #23): the foremost engine does show the left upper engine bearer bolted on it.

B. Unknown location (Noro 2009, p. 103, #138, post 11; post #27 by Carl): the photo posted by Carl does show the same prefitting situation. A substantial amount of wires and boxes are already fixed on the lower firewall bulkhead, as are only the lower engine bearers. Unfortunately, no DB 605 D on trolleys to confort the Wertheim clue.

What can we deduce? In both locations, the Bf 109 K-4 airframes do show the same level of fitting out: wires and boxes are already substantially fixed on the bulkhead's lower part; lower engine bearers only fixed. Evidence so far is thin, but on this basis, there is no indication that those airframes had their engines fitted at Bodenwöhr and then removed at Wertheim prior their dispersal in the woods. In the contrary, the fact that both the engines on trolleys and the wing sets were all located either next to or at the entrance of the Schlossberg tunnel does speak for sub-assemblies arriving there by railroad, being offloaded and readied in the tunnel workshop before being transported to the uphill forrested areas for mating on the waiting fuselages. Let's also remember the latter were dispersed in the woods surrounding Wertheim's airfield where the fly-ins and handing over tasks were carried out.

The depicted airframes complete with tailplanes and engines with their cowlings piled up at Flossenbürg inn May 1945 are one reality. That not all Flossenbürg Waldwerke could work along the same line is documented by Hideki Noro's #pic 138 and Carls post #27. The probability is thus high that, during the last two - three monthes, engine supply issues forced some Waldwerke to send their engineless fuselages to still engine supplied assembly shops like Wertheim.

Facit: a variety of makeshift production/assembly situations can be expected to have arisen in the crumbling Third Reich during the last final monthes or weeks as compared to the production plans implemented between October and December 1944...

Cheers
Marc

PS:
- I do hope to see on day pictures of airframes found at Bodenwöhr (so far, no currently available photos of stockpiled, already motorized fuselages, waiting for final assembly there...).
- No matter how hard I tried to swap keywords for a Google search, I did not find ANY information about Daimler-Benz aero production plants, especially for the DB 605/AS or D. Beyond description and power output, I drew a complete blank. Any ideas where to find the required documentation?