Battle of Britain Bf109E found in India a few years ago?

[Andy Saunders]

Ian

I would be very interested to see them - as would the current "custodian" of the Me 109.

Visiting the crash site to identify where it was and find witnesses was on my "to do" list. You may have saved me the trouble!

[ME-109E]

It would be nice to see this 109 left in its current condition and not stripped off its original paint, what are the plans with this 109 that *** ***** is looking after?

[Andy Saunders]

I suspect that the plans are very much to preserve the airframe, which would not have been the case had it been left in India. By now, or certainly in the near future, there would have been no airframe let alone any paint had it been left where it was.

No doubt its custodian will tell us what his intentions are in due course, Nick, although as you clearly know who he is then why not ask him yourself? I think it is unlikely that he will answer your question here.

[JaganP]

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

By now, or certainly in the near future, there would have been no airframe let alone any paint had it been left where it was.
.

I disagree - yep, the paint would have been gone, but the airframe would have made it to a museum for sure. I know it because I was ahem involved in almost spoiling the party at that time.

[Andy Saunders]

Jagan

Possibly so. However, the fact remains that it was found and acquired by a Western collector and restorer and no Indian museum had hiherto shown an interest, apparently.

The same might be said of Hurricane R4118. I rather doubt that it would have been preserved, let alone restored to flight, had it remained in India.

Equally, the DH9s of Bikaner. One is now fully restored and displayed in its pristine glory at Duxford and the other is on the road to restoration to fly. That would not have happened in India, and when I pulled the hulks out of the elephant stable they would not have survived another year or so of termite and insect attack. All you would have had left would be a pile of historic sawdust, I suggest.

[JaganP]

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

Jagan

no Indian museum had hiherto shown an interest, apparently.

Andy,

This is where you get it wrong. The current owner was the first to get to it - hence he got it. There were three museums lined up to take charge had he not taken it up.

As to him 'discovering' it - yes, he found out about it from his end. At the same time, Others discovered it at their end as well. I am sure he did not leak the info to me to find out about it - I got to find out about it from another enthusiast who discovered it on his own. So I very much disagree that it would have been forgotten and got rusted away.

You probably know the story - how the Indian Air Force got interested in it as well but at a later date. Albeit to say, if not the IAF, both the HAL and IN Museums would have got it as they had the interest at that time as well - there was really quite that much interest in that aircraft.

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

The same might be said of Hurricane R4118. I rather doubt that it would have been preserved, let alone restored to flight, had it remained in India.

I dont think there was any dispute on R4118, the IAF examined it and decided it had no means or interest - possibly because it had an intact historical airframe already in its collection and really couldnt take it on.

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

Equally, the DH9s of Bikaner. One is now fully restored and displayed in its pristine glory at Duxford and the other is on the road to restoration to fly. That would not have happened in India, and when I pulled the hulks out of the elephant stable they would not have survived another year or so of termite and insect attack. All you would have had left would be a pile of historic sawdust, I suggest.

Again, I dont dispute anything there and the DH9s were headed where they should have gone.

[Andy Saunders]

Jagan

I respect your views and input.

However, the person who acquired it was, as you say, the first to get it....ie first past the post!

Even if other museums were in line for it, they were simply beaten to it. Had they not all been beaten to it, then might we not be witnessing now the spectacle of the other museums carping on that the other museum had got there first??

I think by your agreement that all the paint would have gone had it not been recovered when it was then you seemingly concur that it would still have been in situ for a long before any of the other museums actually did anything about it. In the meantime, other collectors/dealers/restorers/museums from around the globe would have surely stepped in. After all, its existence wasn't exactly unknown on the world stage!

[JaganP]

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

Jagan

I respect your views and input.

However, the person who acquired it was, as you say, the first to get it....ie first past the post!

Even if other museums were in line for it, they were simply beaten to it. Had they not all been beaten to it, then might we not be witnessing now the spectacle of the other museums carping on that the other museum had got there first??

The person who exported it (note - not the current owner - but the middle man) broke several laws in the process of exportig it. you know the story and so does everyone. He beat the other museums by breaking the law. I would be interested in hearing otherwise. Take a look at how Peter Vacher exported his Hurricane vs How this middle man did this export - and the differences are there for all to see.

For example - Peter Vacher's book has a no-objection certificate from the IAF - did the middle man who exported this get one for his? I am not blaming the current owner - just the middle man who did the export and who still has a police case lodged somewhere..

I do believe that the final owner may have got caught up in it without his knowledge on what laws were being broken - but there is no doubt that museums were beat to the post by this middlman who broke all laws in getting it out of the country. Otherwise we would not have had all this http://www.warbirds.in/wdy/235-wbdy2002.html?start=2

Originally Posted by Andy Saunders

I think by your agreement that all the paint would have gone had it not been recovered when it was then you seemingly concur that it would still have been in situ for a long before any of the other museums actually did anything about it. In the meantime, other collectors/dealers/restorers/museums from around the globe would have surely stepped in. After all, its existence wasn't exactly unknown on the world stage!

Oh I didnt mean to say it would have lost its paint by being insitu, but ther would probably have been moved to a museum and undergone a repaint for display. I would have given it aout another three to four months before it would have gone to a museum.

Oh BTW my point is not about where the aircraft is now,but this common excuse of "the aircraft would have rusted away... wouldnt be taken care off.. wouldnt have survived... " is getting a wee bit tiresome . There were people ready to take it over if they have had a chance.

[Andy Saunders]

Jagan

I note all that you say.

However, there is no merit in debating what may or may not have happened in respect of the removal of this Messerschmitt from India.

Clearly, there are different views on the part of those involved on all sides.

Whilst I am sure you are putting forward the "facts", as you see them, in a genuinely well meaning manner with truthful intent it is also a fact that the real truth may be somewhat removed from that. Others give a different view from that put forward by yourself, and also point to the absolute legitimacy of the transaction that took place and present a wholly different picture.

However, as I say, no merit in debating that here and I have no intention of doing so.

[Andy Saunders]

Further to the ongoing discussions, which have been watched but not commented upon by Rare Aero, that organisation have now contacted me with the request that I post their statement on the Indian Me 109 E here:

“We have seen the various allegations on this aircraft since it was acquired by Rare Aero Ltd, and would make the following statement.
Hitherto, there has been much debate regarding this airframe and this has been exclusively based upon inaccurate reporting in the Indian press and subsequent speculation via the internet. Rare Aero have not entered this debate and have no intention of doing so. However, Rare Aero cannot continue to stand by whilst debate and misleading statements continue to be made via the internet. It is hoped that the following statement will go some way towards setting the record straight:
We do not condone smuggling or the illegal removal of historical artefacts from foreign countries and have never knowingly been involved in such activity.
In the particular case of Bf 109e Werke Nr. 4309, we have possession of the original contract between the Indian entrepreneur and the college who owned the airframe and we are in no doubt that the transaction was correctly and legally carried out on the basis that it was their property to dispose of. It was exported in a routine and, as far as we can ascertain, an open manner. We did not acquire the airframe directly from the college, but from a dealer in military vehicles. Incidentally, the engine number, found on the main bearing caps of 10625, agrees with the Air Intelligence report 3/139 thus confirming the identification.
It is our understanding that the allegations of wrong doing were made by an absentee trustee of the college. The aircraft was kept in atrocious conditions and had been much degraded in its last months due to it being moved from the long-standing position in the courtyard of the college to a scrap dump in a hollow that filled up regularly with filthy, sewage tainted water; hardly the action of an institution, of which this gentleman was a long established trustee, that saw any value in it. We make no comments on his possible motives behind these allegations.
To the best of our knowledge there has been no attempt to make contact with us by the Indian authorities and indeed we have written several times to the Air Attaché of the Indian High Commission to ascertain the truth behind the allegations, but they have all gone unanswered. The only contacts we have received are from Indians wanting to ‘solve the problem’ in exchange for a significant fee, journalists who are after a story when there is not one, and discussion forums with some posters seemingly trying to stir up trouble for their own amusement. The vast majority of you are very supportive and like us want to see the aircraft restored and flying again; however, it will prove difficult to advance the restoration whilst this speculation continues and it would be helpful to us if this speculation based upon incorrect and biased Indian newspaper reports could be brought to a close. Any untrue statements made in public will be dealt with through legal channels and Rare Aero would like to remind all concerned that discussion forums are, legally, a public broadcasting medium”.