Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Is it possible, that if Hartmann knew the truth, he could not reveal it later because of the political pressure of the NATO...?

Very possibly, and in any case, the need to lie was taken care of by Toliver and Constable's constantly repeated assertion that the German claims verification system was super-effective, a myth that persists to this day as it seems

[Stig Jarlevik]

Perhaps another silly question....

Did the Germans ever develop/use gun cameras?
Not even they were (are) 100% reliable, but when taken in use by the Allies must have gotten rid of all sorts of fancy claims

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Nick, the fact that Germans were pursuing careers of their aces does not mean the world should follow. In fact there was an explosion of stories about German superheroes just when the enemy known of mass murders and concentration camps had to become the key ally in Europe.
Re Toliver, I recall to read that he was a CIA's employee or at least an associate. That said, I am fairly certain of that, but cannot find any source just at the moment.
I bet there is plenty of paperwork in that, still classified.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Perhaps another silly question....

Did the Germans ever develop/use gun cameras?
Not even they were (are) 100% reliable, but when taken in use by the Allies must have gotten rid of all sorts of fancy claims

Cheers
Stig

Yes gun cameras were used by the Germans but they were too resource poor to stick gun cameras in each and every aircraft.

[kalender1973]

I ask always, how it happend, so many generals of after war bundesluftwaffe come from JG52: Rall, Barkhorn, Obleser, Krupinski, Hrabak, Steinhoff, someone else??? I don't know if this was special politic of US and BRD "HR" departments and such books as Toliver & Constable should help to position the people in the right light

[Johannes]

One in three doesn't sound correct, during the Battle of Britain it was two to one, the British no better. Luftwaffe night fighters were much more accurate, should I say very honest claimers in general, don't know why exactly, basically your witness would be your crew......usually a set crew, so plenty of opportunity for cheater there, but then their claims are likely to be over Wenrmacht held territory, and unlike in the East the crash-sites would be investigated, guess this would explain the higher number of unconfirmed claims compared to the East. JG2 operated in an area where combat was often over the sea !. In the East JG5 believed themselves in some kind of exile, and received less superior equipment.......often secondhand, so resentment could play a part here, their claims pattern is rather like that of JG54 in the North, III./JG64 were far more accurate in their claiming to the rest of the Geschwader.

Rank plays a part, Kommandeur claiming seems less than honest......but only certain pliots, seems if you were that way inclined then being a Kommandeur was a way........I would guess you could chose your own wingman......dodgy wingman ?

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Luftwaffe night fighters were much more accurate, should I say very honest claimers in general, don't know why exactly, basically your witness would be your crew......usually a set crew, so plenty of opportunity for cheater there

Kind Regards

Johannes

Reading Theo Boiten's Nachtjagd Combat Archive series it becomes clear that night fighter crews were usually operating in close cooperation with a ground station which was itself linked in with other defences. So, if a bomber was claimed and the target disappeared from radar then that was one source of confirmation but the Flak and searchlights could also be contacted in case they had seen (say) a burning aircraft falling, or an explosion on the ground.

[Franek Grabowski]

Are there any known surviving combat reports of Hartmann?

[Johannes]

Hi Franek

Not that I know of.

Many of Barkhorn's survive, A.S.M, v.n.e-a.s.m claims for JG52 are completely surviving until mid-1944, but Hartmann's claims rather suspiciously seem all to have been the non-problem type. Actually I have all the JG52 A.S.M claims, and it is very noticeable, you would think with so many claims that there would be a few.

I assume that each pilot was given a copy at the time? Something we can be enlightened on hopefully.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Johannes
I understand that the German bureaucracy produced a number of reports, certainly no less than the RAF which had an extensive distribution list. I am surprised that so few survived. I would say that they are essential to make assessment of pilot's scoring.