GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Thank you, John!

[ju55dk]

There are gaps in 1941-42. Most of JFS 3/Jgr. Drontheim NVM were lost during the war. And I have two other losses without a NVM apart from that in Denmark.
Junker

[Franek Grabowski]

Obviously, there are some gaps towards the end of the war, but there are some gaps from the earlier period. For example, Galland was wounded on 2 July 1941, but there is no record in either NVMs nor GQ6. The problem is, that we know that some records are incomplete, but we have no idea to what extent. Simply, we do not have full access to NVMs, and those should be indexed to make any analysis possible. We do not have detailed information from lower levels of command chain. To be honest, I do not expect the actual figures to be much different, and I guess the gaps refer mostly to wounded airmen and damaged aircraft, but we should be very careful with any definite statements in this regard.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Junker and Franek, thank you!

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

To be honest, I do not expect the actual figures to be much different, and I guess the gaps refer mostly to wounded airmen and damaged aircraft, but we should be very careful with any definite statements in this regard.

I agree that the difference in personal losses is unlikely to be significant if we leave out the last months of the war. But for aircraft losses, primarily on the ground, in some cases distortions can be noticeable.
In any case, all this creates an unpleasant uncertainty.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Jim P.]

Originally Posted by RudiS

Hi Franek,

These are two different copies of the same document. Attached is a scan of the first page of Jan 3rd 1941. One is of RL 2-III/753, the other is from RL 2-III/1176.

Just to add to RudiS' comment, while I've yet to see any discrepancies between the two sets of GenQu. losses, the Schulen losses do display some differences. I have two sets of Schulen losses on fiche. (I don't think these have been released yet on Invenio.) One set is missing a few pages that are included with the second set (and vice-versa). There are also different handwritten comments on each set, some readable, some not. My point being that while on the surface they may appear to be identical, the devil is in the details so to speak. As a word of caution, it shouldn't be assumed from reviewing a number of pages from the two Gen.Qu. sets that they are totally identical. And there are a heck of a lot more total pages in the 24 volumes of Gen.Qu. reports than in the Schulen reports.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Andrey Kuznetsov

Junker and Franek, thank you!
I agree that the difference in personal losses is unlikely to be significant if we leave out the last months of the war. But for aircraft losses, primarily on the ground, in some cases distortions can be noticeable.
In any case, all this creates an unpleasant uncertainty.

I guess there might be some write offs missing not including personal losses. I am aware of such case in Tunisia, but I tend to blame the chaos at the end of the campaign. The thing that struck me is the small percentage of Me 109 pilots bailing out during the summer 1941 Channel offensive. Of course this prooves nothing but raises doubts. The question is, if this could be verified somehow.

Originally Posted by Jim P.

Just to add to RudiS' comment, while I've yet to see any discrepancies between the two sets of GenQu. losses, the Schulen losses do display some differences. I have two sets of Schulen losses on fiche. (I don't think these have been released yet on Invenio.) One set is missing a few pages that are included with the second set (and vice-versa). There are also different handwritten comments on each set, some readable, some not. My point being that while on the surface they may appear to be identical, the devil is in the details so to speak. As a word of caution, it shouldn't be assumed from reviewing a number of pages from the two Gen.Qu. sets that they are totally identical. And there are a heck of a lot more total pages in the 24 volumes of Gen.Qu. reports than in the Schulen reports.

Well, I have wondered if those two sets are originating from two different offices. There is a long distribution list, so in theory there is a chance that more than one set survived the war. I understand that those sets are originating from one office.

Franek

[ju55dk]

Ready for download:
RL 2-III/756
RL 2-III/760
RL 2-III/761
And the big news Schulen Verluste:
RL 2-III/769
RL 2-III/770

Junker

[Andy Mitchell]

Junker,

Many thanks for the heads up.

All downloaded successfully.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, all!

I see a lot of comments regarding the omissions, amendments, and so on regarding these original records.

My suggestion is to head over to https://aviationhistorynorway.blogspot.com/

There you can find some of the explanations if you read German - a translation to English is on my to-do list.

Try to remember the following: No computers, no databases, wartime...

(btw - can you spot the gem in the report?)

BR,
Andreas B

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Try to remember the following: No computers, no databases, wartime...

Andreas B

To be pedantic, both sides used IBM/Hollerith punched card machines to store and sort data but I fear all that is lost and words on paper are all that we have now.