Strange case of Walter Dahl

[Stig Jarlevik]

Michael

That is unfortunately a very futile excercise, since it means aboslutely nothing.

I gladly stand corrected, but
a) Tolliver/Constable never made any research of themselves into any German records what so ever. They met and talked to a lot of pilots and were among the first trying to bring some kind of "justice" back to Luftwaffe without bringing too much politics into the subject, BUT remember they were from USA and the cold war was very "hot" at the time....
b) Don't know about Musciano, but I have serious doubts....
c) Aders/Held, no idea why they suddenly lower the score, but if anyone can prove they have done any kind of research, well, stand up and be counted!!
e) Weal? Don't know him, but I find it strange he just copied source a and b.
Own research? Not what I have heard!

Bottom line is you are chasing the rainbow.
It is like if you are religious or not. Either you believe which makes what anyone else says irrelevant, or on the other hand, don't believe, and open your ears and eyes for some kind of alternative truth.

To determine that truth you stand in front of a, at present enigma, because you need to either learn Russian, apply for a clearance and drown yourself in probably a million+ documents in Russian archives, wait for Russian friends to publish every claim/loss on the Eastern Front, preferably in English (which they are nowhere near doing), or perhaps give up.

After that you need to evaluate each Soviet/German claim/loss report on a basis of a political system prevailant on both sides at the time vs what really happened.

Finally you need to determine (as Johannes desperately tries to do for the Luftwaffe) was each German claim made in good faith or were they "lies", or were they part of a system provoking certain individuals to make fantasy claims? That same criteria then goes for the Soviet pilots. We know they overclaimed just as much as the German pilots did. All of them were stuck within a basic frame of mind they simply could not get out of.

Another bottom line is that your somewhat aggressive mind and attitude makes it very difficult to know what you are actually after. Many individuals here are both hurt and offended by that and answer back with the same provocative mind.

I myself is a nobody when it comes to Luftwaffe research, but I have adopted a different approach. I listen to those who knows more than me. I ask questions without (at least I hope so) any pointed fingers and I try to understand what these persons are saying to me. I am sure many find both my questions and sometimes my answer both silly and self evident, but I also believe they also think I am doing that with good faith and answers me very kindly and friendly, which means I basically like everyone on TOCH.

It is up to you to create your own profile Michael, I am not going to lead you anywhere, but to earn respect you need to show respect to others, regardless if they tell "your" truth or an alternative one.

Cheers
Stig

[John Manrho]

A forum like this is all about an exchange of information....that means an individual has to contribute something......if you only ask questions without showing any drive to research the matter and to provide answers yourself.... then in the end members will stop answering questions....

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

Lets not fight.

Ernst Obermaier had an earlier 1960's publication of his Ritterkreuz book, I don't have this, but his 1980's publication is actually quite honest, he actually states for Tanzer victories uncertain, 128 and 143 have been stated. He also has an entry for Emil Pusch, states a possible date for Ritterkreuz, no Date of Birth, no unit, no number of victories. For some reason years ago I wrote under the entry that he flew with NJG 2 with thirty victories, but as an Oberfeldwebel he could have been a bordfunfer e.t.c, almost certainly he didn't claim as a pilot.

Michael if you have the 1960's book, can you please tell me what Obermaier states about Tanzer in it. This earlier version is much more vague generally, am hoping to establish if 128/143 is the case for this book, also what is the year of publication? We collectively can at least establish how far back the anomaly goes. You you do have the book, what does it state for Walther Dahl?

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Many Luftwaffe pilots received the Ritterkreuz posthumously or after being wounded-out of the war, or not expected to return to combat. Now I know not if being wounded-out of the war was just a convenient break in which to award a Ritterkreuz for an under-par total. Perhaps Tanzer's 1943 wound to his hand, which despite his alleged huge blood loss seems minor compared to injures/wounds some pilots flew with, perhaps this wounds was in fact something much more severe, perhaps he was dragged from his sickbed in the dying months of the war like so many others!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hi Johannes

I have the first edition of Obermaier (1966), and he states there:
Total of 723 missions, including 187 fighter-bomber sorties, 143 victories (17 West, 4 four-engined).

I never knew Obermaier, so I cannot say if this is his own invention or not, but somehow he does not come across as a fantasy writer. I know he must have been a friend of Karl Ries, since they did at least one book together. If they also were friends of Hans Ring, is something I don't know, but together they sort of formed an early triangle of German historians back in the 1960s.

We also have to remember that during the 1960s to basically early 1990s everyone simply believed that all data coming from Germany was correct and no one really questioned their value. With more and more data coming from the other side in the East combined with deep research in remaining German files a different picture started to appear which also kept increasing.

I suppose that is where we stand now.

So was Obermaier the "inventor" or was he in turn "tricked" by someone else? No idea....

Cheers
Stig

[knusel]

Good morning,

sometimes scores were faked posthumously by friends or relatives of the deceased (e.g. Mannock, Nishizawa...)

Cheers,

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I agree Stig, probably Obermaier was mislead by somebody, but guess we will never know. Facts are then that the 143 has been in play from 1966 or before. It's also likely that Tanzer knew nothing of this. I would be surprised if Woidich knew of his 110 as he sent my friend Bernd Barbas his abschusselist which only contained eighty-two. Trouble is that we this that this is their life, for most of the survivors it was just a small piece that many would like to forget, don't suppose that Woidich bought publications to read about himself, so likely as I said he just didn't know, and likely Tanzer in the same position, and his early death didn't help him find out either, perhaps the 143 was even invented/miss-quoted between 1960(his death) and the 1966 Obermaier publication.

With what Michael said I think of Friedrich Wachowiak, here Obermaier credits him with eight-six minimum, but his Mother says 120, his comrades 140. Yet after a long combat free break he returns to take his total to exactly eighty-nine...…...again Obermaier is honest about hearsay, same with Ulrich Wohnert.

When I first started seriously compiling Luftwaffe data/totals I would use a sheet of paper and in the first line number what has previously been quoted, so take Erwin Lastowski using Obermaier's book I would have written forty-six numbers in column one, and noted the fronts in the last column i.e first twenty-five Russian, last twenty-one Allied, fourteen viermots, yet his total is only fifteen, ten Russian, five American viermots, Like Tanzer you wonder for what his Ritterkreuz was awarded, though with all fairness he did claim many other viermots that just not confirmed, as he himself mentioned they were unconfirmed they must have been H.S.S or E.V, yet he again doen't mention this either, I suspect Obermaier is confusing the points system in the West with "victories", but that doesn't explain the discrepancy with the Russian claims.

I still think there is information out there to influence how we credit obscure pilots like Tanzer's totals. History is a strange thing, we learn more about the truth the further from the actual time of the events we get.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good morning Johannes,

yes, that's a wise choice of words.

Today is my last working day for 2018.
Thanks a lot for your praiseworthy historical research work.
I'm looking forward to read anything you will find out in the future.

I wish you and your family a happy Xmas time and a successful new year 2019 !

Michael

[Johannes]

Hi Michael

Many thanks, and the same to you.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[knusel]

Good evening Johannes,

for Xmas I received Lance Bronnenkant's BLUE MAX AIRMEN Vol12. Surprisingly and in contrast to the other German WW1 aces Eduard von Schleich has an extremely poor correlation of his claims with Allied losses. As his squadronmates do no come off much better, the author discusses if this is due to some kind of conspiracy by them or due to the possibility that the Allied loss records for this period and this part of the front having been lost.
Did you receive an airwar book for Xmas ?

Have some good final days of 2018,

Michael

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by knusel

Good evening Johannes,

for Xmas I received Lance Bronnenkant's BLUE MAX AIRMEN Vol12. … Did you receive an airwar book for Xmas ?
Michael

Getting well off topic there, I think: better discussed in a new thread under "Books" or in a PM.