Luftwaffe Myths

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

God forgive, this way any offensive weapon when attacked turns defensive!
The war with Germany was in the years 1939-1945, so I do not know, why to limit the period up to 1941. Anyway, if you do not know, Halifax, Manchester and Stirling, apart of Wellington of course.
Those fighter pilots evolved in the period 1939-1944! Quite to the contrary to the Luftwaffe, which lost or otherwise misused vast combat experience gathered since SCW. Management of resources is key issue here.
This is an utter nonsense. Every word of it. Sorry.
This is no achievement. The problem is to build large and quality air force during wartime, and both Americans and British achieved this.
Have you read Mein Kampf?

You win, I surrender to your superior intellect and knowledge...

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Kildlawyrs

"What you do not know is the content of the PM that passed between myself and the forum owner regarding the initial thrust/purpose of the thread. If you did, then my post #18 would make more sense".


Well since in fact I was the initial poster to this thread, I would be very interested in knowing what was passed back and forth. As you may recall, I received a surprising and extraordinarily hostile number of responses to my original posting (quite a welcome!). Now I am not some kind of panty waist who runs in terror anytime somone disagrees with me, but I have gone back and read, and re-read and re-re-read my initial posting, and I'm damned if I can find what upset some people so. If the Luftwaffe in its totality cannot be discussed here, then why are we all here in the first place? Very odd.

This is the Luftwaffe Discussion forum, right?

p.s. Even my screen name was attacked...!!?

You don't upset people, it takes but a click to end any unwanted participation in this community.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.
Unfortunately your entry, nickname and reaction seem to fit the profile of a troll.

Of course this believe may be unjustified, and that's why you get the chance to proof it wrong.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

You win, I surrender to your superior intellect and knowledge...

Great. And in the saved time I suggest you to read Mein Kampf and then answer a simple question: why Hitler, who considered war on two fronts as a worst error of the old Empire, and considered it a criminal stupidity, did exactly the same in 1941.

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by CJE

Once again, you all forget the political aspect of WW2, particularly so on the German side.

good point Chris...I recall a quote from Beevor's 'Berlin'

" ..if we hadn't have persecuted the Jews maybe Einstein would have developed the bomb for us.."...or similar

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Great. And in the saved time I suggest you to read Mein Kampf and then answer a simple question: why Hitler, who considered war on two fronts as a worst error of the old Empire, and considered it a criminal stupidity, did exactly the same in 1941.

Well, the answer is simply to that, it become clear by November 1940 that Soviet ambitious in Eastern Europe are unsatifisfiable, and strategically unacceptable. War was unavoidable. There were pretty good clues about that the USA will enter the war in the near future, and very little doubt on which side.

In the given strategic situation, in 1941 Hitler made the only viable strategic decision, and tried to knock out the only immediate threat. Soviet-Russia was major risk and threat to the German position on the continent; Britain wasn't and could simply never become one. With Soviet-Russia neutralized as a threat, the German strategic position in Europe would be set in concreate, even if the USA would eventually enter the war. At the same time, strategic resources, a safe Hinterland for continuing war against the forming Anglo-Saxon coalition would be secured, as well as Hitler's main strategic deperature from the old Reich colonization politics - securing resources for German industrial hunger in Eastern Europe, rather in Africa and Asia - would be realized sooner than original planned.

Thus Hitler entered a race with time with fairly reasonable gamble - and eventually lost when Russia could not be neutralized by 1943.

[Brian Bines]

One would guess that Hitlers attack on the USSR probaly did not constitute a war on two Fronts in his mind. In 1941 he had secured his position in Western Europe Britain was isolated and had no hope of mounting an invasion on its own. The RAF has not built up its Bomber force to the threat it later posed and the battle of the Atlantic was a very serious threat. I have not read Mein Kampf but according to a British historian it indicated Hitler's ambitions lay in the east, although he felt Britain and France might well attack him once he was committed to an eastward expansion. To protect his west border he had the West Wall built as a line of defence, but following his takeovers in the east prior to Sept 39 and his pact with the USSR decided to secure his position in the West once Britain and France made a stand over Poland. I believe he was credited as saying of an attack on the USSR something to the effect ' kick in the front door and the whole rotten system will collapse '. There is still a debate about whether his support for Italy over its invasion of Greece meant he did not get to Moscow before the winter of 1941 set in, which then committed Germany to a long war.
The Lufwaffe and indeed the whole of the German Armed Forces and economy simply did not have the ability to win a war that could not be won quickly as planned.
Thats my bit on a very complicated issue .

[Franek Grabowski]

Brian
By any means read Mein Kampf. You will understand then, that Hitler rejected war against both Britain and Russia, and wanted an alliance with one of the powers against the other one. Russia/Soviet Union supported him in the war and provided raw materials, so why he attacked them, instead of dropping Britons on their knees?
Sorry, gents, I may understand that you do not agree, but do not ignore the theory just because you do not like it.

[Kurfürst]

The simple answer to that is that in November 1940 Molotov came to Berlin. Hitler suggested that Germany and USSR would divide up the British Empire - Molotov was not interested, and told Hitler in fairly straightforward terms that Soviet-Russia wants Finnland, Rumania, Turkey and Bulgaria. Hitler probably heard that as nickel, oil and chromium... the rest is history.

I highly recommomend Paul Schmidt's book, 'I was Hitler's Interpreter' on the matter, as he was present at the meeting and gives a very detailed account of it.

[Nick Beale]

There seems to be an assumption underlying many of the above posts that (a) Hitler and (b) Nazi policy were either rational or at least followed a consistent internal logic.

[Brian Bines]

Franek,

It is not that I agree or disagree with what you say, I have an interest in this subject and can only learn/modify my views by discussion which I hope offends no one.
As you say Hitler wanted to ally himself with one power against the other, from his point of view did the isolation of Britain 1940/41 constitute to him a compromise to an alliance, leaving him free to attack the USSR. Would his view of the USSR as an ally have been modified by that countries invasion of Poland and war with Finland. You also make the point that Germany traded with the USSR for vital raw materials would this also have made it a better economic target. I believe that the German trade was carried out through bi-lateral trade agreements ( now banned by the IMF) because of the weak mark, something that in the long term who have threatened the international banking system.
I believe there was a lot of opposition to the communist system in Germany following attempted revolution in Germany 1918/19, and also fear that the Red Army almost came through Western Europe under Voroshilov following World War One.
Would the Hitler the dictator in 1941 hold and stick to the same views as Hitler the author of Mein Kampf in the 1920's,



Regards

Brian Bines