Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18th May 2023, 13:14
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,096
ju55dk will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

Yes they are.
Junker
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 28th May 2023, 21:47
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 900
Andrey Kuznetsov will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

Hello Franek,

I know quite a few examples where reliably known aircraft losses are missing from the GQM returns. But so far I have not seen a single case where a reliably known personal loss is missing from the German documents (I judge this mainly from Soviet data on POW or KIA German pilots). 1944, of course, remains outside the brackets.

Best regards,
Andrey
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29th May 2023, 05:37
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,096
ju55dk will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

I can confirm that personel losses in rare cases are missing from the NVM(WASt)
Junker
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 29th May 2023, 09:24
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,806
John Manrho will become famous soon enoughJohn Manrho will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

I have found that several losses, mainly in December 1944, were not recorded in a NVM although the pilot had serious injuries and in one case even was KIA.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 29th May 2023, 18:53
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 900
Andrey Kuznetsov will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

John and Junker, thank you!

And are there similar examples in 1941-43?

Best regards,
Andrey
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 29th May 2023, 19:44
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,806
John Manrho will become famous soon enoughJohn Manrho will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

I am not sure, but I would assume 1940-1943 is reasonably complete. I think gaps can be seen from fall of 1944 onwards. Of course everything after February 1945 is more and more a problem.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 29th May 2023, 23:19
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 900
Andrey Kuznetsov will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

Thank you, John!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 30th May 2023, 05:27
ju55dk's Avatar
ju55dk ju55dk is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,096
ju55dk will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

There are gaps in 1941-42. Most of JFS 3/Jgr. Drontheim NVM were lost during the war. And I have two other losses without a NVM apart from that in Denmark.
Junker
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 30th May 2023, 13:15
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,389
Franek Grabowski is on a distinguished road
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

Obviously, there are some gaps towards the end of the war, but there are some gaps from the earlier period. For example, Galland was wounded on 2 July 1941, but there is no record in either NVMs nor GQ6. The problem is, that we know that some records are incomplete, but we have no idea to what extent. Simply, we do not have full access to NVMs, and those should be indexed to make any analysis possible. We do not have detailed information from lower levels of command chain. To be honest, I do not expect the actual figures to be much different, and I guess the gaps refer mostly to wounded airmen and damaged aircraft, but we should be very careful with any definite statements in this regard.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 30th May 2023, 23:28
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 900
Andrey Kuznetsov will become famous soon enough
Re: GQM Verluste und Unfälle.

Junker and Franek, thank you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
To be honest, I do not expect the actual figures to be much different, and I guess the gaps refer mostly to wounded airmen and damaged aircraft, but we should be very careful with any definite statements in this regard.
I agree that the difference in personal losses is unlikely to be significant if we leave out the last months of the war. But for aircraft losses, primarily on the ground, in some cases distortions can be noticeable.
In any case, all this creates an unpleasant uncertainty.

Best regards,
Andrey
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Saburo Sakai knusel Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East 123 12th February 2020 10:05
Zerstorer Staffel Er. Kdo 25 Peter Kassak Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 8th April 2014 21:37
War record for Joseph Beuys? dallken Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 7th March 2013 19:59
crash on 27 March 1944 between Pau and Lourdes gilles collaveri Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 35 2nd February 2013 19:08
Operations: KG 26, 28. April 1040 (X Fliegerkorps) Hallvor Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 8 15th June 2011 21:59


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net