Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[HGabor]

Hi John, here it is:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Verified-Vi...6&unfiltered=1

Gabor

[HGabor]

Stig, I can assure you that picking up a belly landed plane by the mechanics was not an issue in Hungary as long as it landed on their own side. The nature of WWII that swept across Hungary did not leave a cm long gap between Soviet ground forces along the front lines, so everything was accessible. OTER, BAO and other mechanic organizations were not made for no reason ;-)

Robert: you'll see it next year ;-)

Gabor

P.S.: RLM LP regulations also had a thing to say about enemy aircraft belly landing on enemy territory [hint, hint, hint ;-) ]

[Stig Jarlevik]

Originally Posted by HGabor

Stig, I can assure you that picking up a belly landed plane by the mechanics was not an issue in Hungary as long as it landed on their own side. The nature of WWII that swept across Hungary did not leave a cm long gap between Soviet ground forces along the front lines, so everything was accessible. OTER, BAO and other mechanic organizations were not made for no reason ;-)

Gabor

P.S.: RLM LP regulations also had a thing to say about enemy aircraft belly landing on enemy territory [hint, hint, hint ;-) ]

No, I agree with that.
That is always a problem when you fight a defensive war and in this case were constantly on the run.

I was just ribbing you a little with regard to the flat tyre....

Cheers
Stig

[BenFolk]

Hi

for example;

On February 9, 1943, the troops of the Red Army fought for the possession of Timoshevskaya and other points in the Kuban.
Having received the task to attack the Slavyanskaya airfield, the 66th IAP aircraft covered the IL-2. In the ensuing air battle, navigator of the 66th IAP Major Sayfutdinov was shot down. On a downed plane, he made an emergency tree landing in the Red Forest in the territory occupied by the enemy. For three days he hid near the plane and on the fourth day Saifutdinov was found and hid by the forester Novikov. Together with Sayfutdinov, Novikov disguised and kept the Yak-1 plane until the arrival of the Red Army units, after which he handed over the plane to the technical team against receipt.
Hartmann was among the riflemen, so aerial victory, or at least for a few weeks. Or was it not an aerial victory.

During the summer of 1943, 13 OTTR evacuated 42 aircraft from the sites of forced landings. The department cut 26 aircraft into parts. During the offensive period of the 2nd Belorussian Front, Senior Sergeant Zizevsky took part in the evacuation of 27 aircraft from the places of forced landings, in addition, 2 aircraft were evacuated from under enemy fire.


Regards

BenFolk

[John Vasco]

Still waiting for a reply to my post #244 from robert.

Quick to make statements, slow to reply (if at all)...

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by robert

I did not change my opinion but I don't want to waste my time for such idiot like you

Robert, instead of making personal attacks, how about giving a straight answer to a simple question?

If you can't manage that, don't bother posting.

[HGabor]

There is no reason for name calling on this forum. Certain norms should be maintained, we are all here to learn and have fun without belittling each other. Comparing Soviet records from 1939 (then a local conflict) and from 1945 (full swing WWII after several major changes and reorganizations of the Soviet war machine) is a basic mistake. Early records could be lost or destroyed, let alone put on certain websites as of yet and so on. A lot can be said about the Soviet Red Army but that 'they did not report their losses' cannot. Their personnel and material losses were reported in different channels (unlike the American MAC Reports, where both were reported in a common folder), not to mention that their records were overlapping in a network of multiple documents. Regiment, Division, Corps, Army level, etc… These documents these days can be found at TsAMO RF with a portion published online (mostly unit diaries). Aircraft losses and mechanical records are also kept there but most of them are not published online.
But let us get back to Hartmann…June 4, 1944 is interesting to say the least.

Gabor

[Chris Goss]

There are only two moderators on 12 OCH and it is not a full time (paid) job. They have been made aware and will no doubt act as they see fit when time permits

[Nick Beale]

I've been driven to delete a whole sequence of antagonistic posts from this thread. This should not have become necessary.

As if anyone should need reminding, TOCH is not an arena for conducting personal disputes.

If anyone wants a fight, take it outside — it's not as if there aren't other channels available.

If you are offended by a post, don't respond to it and complain to the moderators afterwards, that only adds fuel to the fire. However much you believe you're in the right, just tell the moderators and let us deal with it.

OK, back to Erich Hartmann's claims and victories …

[John Beaman]

Amen, Nick