7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List

[Johannes]

I agree with the matching Allied losses. With regards to Barkhorn he is cited as an accurate claimer until to approaches the 300 mark, but after 272 claims he own papers do not provide times or place of his claim, only the date and type, therefore during this period when his claims are questioned how can they be matched against Russian losses, with the exception of no Russian losses of that type that day?(and then you have to consider mis-identification of aircraft type), moreover though Barkhorn was ambitious to get the Brillianten to his Ritterkreuz, it's unlikely that he would change from being a accurate(honest) claimer to making false claims! Same could be said about Hartmann's "352/80" after Novemebr 1944 there are very few of his claims that are well documented, therefore it is almost impossible to analyse this period of his career, though I will concede that he is unlikely to have changed from being a fraudulent claimer to a honest one.....unless he was with new company, but I don't think that is the case. I guess if his overclaiming is true, it's a good job he was German and not English.......or he would have gone into politics!

Regards

Johannes

[GMichalski]

Thank you for the information, I was looking at Assi Hahn's claims and I believe that if it did overclaims it can be more in russia that in england because has many multiple claims.... but i don´t know because JG 2 does not have good reputation....

what about Hartmann?...we need to open a new forum for this!!...
which claims are REALLY CONFIRMED to him by soviets
80-120-150...
in internet are many webs pro-Hartmann and against Hartmann but not the true information..
regards

[GMichalski]

The last claims of Barkhorn do not seem to be exagerate but the claims of Hartmann are too much in a little time.
Somebody have info about de 15 claims one day or 30 en four days of Hubert Strassl, seems like Hartmann....

[Nokose]

The Russian author Vitaliy Gorbach had nothing bad to say about Hubert Strassl's cliams in his book on the Kursk air battle.

[GMichalski]

Wow it´s incredible, i always thinking in overclaims in examples like this or Emil Lang (18 one day).....

I was completely wrong, thanks

over Assi Hahn what do you think?

regards

[Nokose]

I know very little about Hans "Assi" Hahn's claims. On looking at the 11Feb43 he claimed 3 Curtiss P-40 from 09:52-09:58 in the Leningrad area and Lt. Max Stotz in the same battle claimed 2 Curtiss P-40. I know of only one loss from that battle which was a P-40 of the 158 IAP in which Ml.Lt. Petr Ivanovich Gavrikov was listed MIA. If there were any forced landings or damaged I don't have anything. I'd go with Stotz from what little I've read in the past of him.

[GMichalski]

Hi
Johannes thinks the same thing...
I put Hann in overclaimers with ? and i´m waiting for more info.
about Kittel i don´t find anything and nobody speaks of anything bad or for anything good ¿?
and about Ihlefeld?? i found that he would be reliable?? but i´m not sure
->
(43 claims by Ihlefeld and Geisshardt ,the Soviets registered 31 losses, but Soviet aircraft that belly-landed in friendly territory can be justifyably claimed as shot down by German pilots, whereas the Soviets did not file them as losses, because they could be repaired.....) over 72% + maybe some damaged...

from -> http://www.lwag.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-389.html discussion about overclaims.

on the other hand of Ihle i found a surprise:
00.02.45 Herbert Ihlefeld: n.b.?? JG1 P-51? £ not confirmed? , in He-162, while practicing training flights - eyewitness: Fw. Sell

regards.

[Nokose]

Here is some information on Obfw. Hans Schleef 7./JG3 who had 99 victories. On the 7May43 NW of Slov'yans'k (Sslawjansk) he claimed two "Bostons" for his 61st and 62nd at 04:13 and 04:14. His 61st was Ml. Lt. Baykov of the 861 BAP which crashed 3-4km from Yasnaya Gorka and his 62nd Starshina Zhivulin of the 861 BAP was hit but managed to make it to Bogorodichnoe (I believe it's now Bohorodychne) before crashing. The second wave of nine is harder to determine Uffz Heinz Luedtke 8./JG3 his 2nd victory 4:14 NW of Kramatorskaya & 3rd 4:20 W of Krasny Liman, Uffz. Norbet Geyer 7./JG3 4:18 W of Krasny Liman, Uffz Franz Birnstill 9./JG3 4:29 E of Grizojewka, Lt. Fritz Voss 8./JG3 E of Krasny Liman. Uffz Harald Frenzel of the 9. claimed a Boston for his 3rd way to the south of this attack (no idea on who he was attacking). There was only 3 other Bostons that went down in the second wave of the 861 BAP.

[Rob Romero]

Nokose do you have AC & crew data for both waves? TIA

[Nokose]

I'll give you the pilots only as there are to many crew members that are KIA and MIA.
Schleef's (61) Ml.Lt. Georgiy Ilich Baykov [KIA](62) Ml.Lt. Aleksandr Vladimirovich Zhivulin [KIA].
There is one more loss then the previous post for the 2nd wave of nine. The leader of that section stated all nine were burning from the attack.
(1) Ml.Lt. Eduard Mikhaylovich Shishkov (KIA) 861 BAP (2) Ml.Lt. Evgeniy Pavlovich Kapishnikov (KIA) 861 BAP (3) Serzh. Andreev 861 BAP (4) Lt. Lebedev 861 BAP.
Luedtke claimed his 2nd & 3rd victory, Geyer his 2nd, Birnstill his 2nd, Voss his 2nd, and Frenzel his 3rd.