identification of the Normandy-Niemen victories : overclaiming my friend!

[Stig Jarlevik]

Laurent

You use identifiers in your summary not listed in your explanation!

List: VSI (nearest explanation stated by you should read SIV?)
List: AI NSIV (nearest explanation stated by you should read AI VNSC?)
List: VNSI (nearest explanation by you should read NSIV?)

Cheers
Stig

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Laurent

You use identifiers in your summary not listed in your explanation!

List: VSI (nearest explanation stated by you should read SIV?)
List: AI NSIV (nearest explanation stated by you should read AI VNSC?)
List: VNSI (nearest explanation by you should read NSIV?)

Cheers
Stig

Thank you Stig for your comments,

yes you understood the problem correctly, I still think in French while writing in English.
I corrected.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Laurent

A couple of other minor observations
Claims 1) and 2) are the same day, ie 5 April 1943.
For some reason you have chosen to use the "American" way of writing dates, meaning claim 1) is reversed.
Claims 3) - 5) were all over Fw 190s, missing here.

Also always keep in mind that pilots identification skills were "lousy" and rightfully so
since identifying aircraft types, many instances only for split seconds, was a tricky business.....

Cheers
Stig

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Thanks Laurent

A couple of other minor observations
Claims 1) and 2) are the same day, ie 5 April 1943.
For some reason you have chosen to use the "American" way of writing dates, meaning claim 1) is reversed.
Claims 3) - 5) were all over Fw 190s, missing here.

Also always keep in mind that pilots identification skills were "lousy" and rightfully so
since identifying aircraft types, many instances only for split seconds, was a tricky business.....

Cheers
Stig

Thanks, i have all corrected

[Courtois Laurent]

Concerning the 24th victory

24. 07/16/1943: Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. IF V.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo

In reality today, the 1st VA claims 7 Ju-87s, including 6 for the 7th Gv IAD (2nd IAK). As this division seems to do a lot of over-cleaming (30 of the 43 victories claimed by the 1st VA, if we add the victories of "Normandie" that makes 39 victories out of the 43 of the day. The other units of the 1st VA wisely claimed only 4 victories) and that I did not find any of these victories in the list of Soviet ace victories, we can argue that these victories were "consolatory" and attributed to pilots who disappeared that day. The 2nd IAK lost 19 planes and the “Normandie” 3.
In conclusion, in view of this and perhaps out of chauvinism, I attributed the victory to the French Ju-87.

[Courtois Laurent]

Victories will be classified into:
Scientifically Identified Victory. In this case the destruction of the downed enemy aircraft was found in the Bundesarchives: SIV.
Aircraft-Identified - Victory Not Scientifically Confirmed: AI-VNSC. The plane was identified, but only damaged.
Non-Scientifically Identified Victory: NSIV. In this case, the destruction of the downed enemy plane was not found in the Bundesarchives.
This can be linked either:
- loss of the report or incorrect classification in the archives.
- the fact that the damage to the aircraft did not lead to its unavailability for repair.

Let's start, Thanks forward for any help and corrections.


1) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Preziosi. NSIV.
2) 05/04/1943: Roslavl-Liudinovo: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
No German losses reported today
3) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Durand. NSIV.
4) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Mahé. NSIV.
5) 13/04/1943: Spas-Demensk: FW-190 - Derville/Poznanski/Bizien. NSIV
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one plane: the FW-190 A44 n° 1994 of 10./J.G.51 was 80% damaged following a forced landing following an engine failure 8 km to the N of Smolensk. (Pl. Qu. 25114), (source: BArch. RL 2-III/1188, p. 198, Lw. Kdo Ost n°143).
6) 02/05/1943: Sofonovo: HS-126 - Lefèvre.NSIV
7) 03/05/1943: Mouliatino: Bf-109 - Lefèvre NSIV
8) 03/05/1943: Spas-Demensk: Hs-126 -Littolff - Castelain - Durand. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Lw. Kdo Ost) only lost one Bf-109: Bf109 G4 n° 5759 of Nahaufkl.Gr.4 was 80% destroyed following a rupture of the landing gear on the airfield from Pankowo (Orel). This damage may have been caused following an aerial combat, so there is a possibility that he was the victim of Marcel Lefèvre. (source BArch RL 2-III/1189, p. 344, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°140).
9) 15/05/1943: Mouliation: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
10. 15/06/1943: Mariuka: FW-189 - Littolff - Castelain. NSIV.
11. 15/06/1943: Brusna - Makovaya: FW-189 of the N.A.Gr. 15- Albert - Preziosi. AI-VNSC - Aircraft slightly damaged.
This day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6) has a damaged FW-189: FW-189 A1 n° 0047 of N.A.Gr.15 is 10% damaged following an aerial combat in the vicinity of Schisdra (Al: Schisdra - Ang : Zhisdra - Fr: Jizdra - Ru: Жиздра), the radio gunner, Uffz Matthias Müller is killed. (source: BArch RL 2-III/1180, p. 185, Lw. Kdo Ost - n°190).
12. 23/06/1943: Bouda: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV
13. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Littolff. NSIV
14. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Castelain.NSIV
15. 13/07/1943: Ksyn: Bf-110 - Durand. NSIV
That day; the Luftwaffe does not lose any BF-110 in the Resseta valley, which is in agreement with the fact that the French operated that day in the Vytebet's' valley. In the latter, only one Messerschmitt Bf-110 (Bf 110 G-2,(S9+BA), W.Nr. 6295) was shot down at Ulianovo, 18 km further south. (major Vyazovik 172nd IAP) and another (Bf 110 G2 - n°6252) was damaged in the same sectors (Lt. Efimov 198th ShAP).
16. 14/07/1943: Yagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Albert. SIV.
Not approved by the Soviets which awarded victory to an Il-2 from the 224th IAD. The exact location is Novoselki, 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina and 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports.
17. 14/07/1943: Iagodnaïa: Bf-110 - Pouyade - Béguin. SIV.
The exact location is Novoselki 5 km WNW of Koziul'kina 10 km ESE of Yagodnaya according to Soviet reports. That day, the ZG1 anti-tank squadron lost 2 Me-110s at Koziul'kina (5km WNW of NOvoselki. 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Kosjulcina (10 km ONO Bolkhov) - fighter fire - Bf 110 F2 - n°5202 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p. 124, no. 120). 07/14/43 - Pz.Jg.St./Z.G.1 -Lumwko (Ljubowka,Leniwka,Lipowka?) - Energency Landing due to fighter fire - Bf 110 G2 - n°6297 - 100% - (R-2-III-1191, p.124, n°121).
18. 14/07/1943 : Kirekovo/Dolgaïa: FW-190 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the Yagodaïa sector despite 6 demands from the 1st Air Army
19. 15/07/1943 : Orel NE: Bbf-110 - Tulasne. NSIV.
20. 15/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - from Forges. NSIV.
That day, the Luftwaffe did not lose any BF-110
21. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Littolff.NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
22. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: Bf-110 - Castelain. NSIV.
No loss of Bf-110 in the 1st Air Army sector.
23. 16/07/1943: Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Tulasne. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
24. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Ju-87 - Pouyade. SIV.
That day, the Ju-87 D3 - n°538 - 10% of III./St.G.1 made a forced landing following on-board gunfire in Zlynij (Zlyn', 15 W Znamenskoe, 53.2776352, 35.8908419), (sources B.ARch. R-2-III-1191, p.43, n°49). Zkin' is located 19 km SE of Krasnikovo
25. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
26. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Leon. NSIV.
No loss of FW-190 in the 1st Air Army sector.
27. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: Bf-109 - from Forges. NSIV.
No loss of Me-109 in the 1st Air Army sector.
28. 16/07/1943 : Krasnikovo: FW-189 - Pouyade / Préziosi/ Béguin / Durand / Risso / Vermeil. NSIV.
C.J. Ehrengard in H.S. No. 3 of Aèro-Journal, page 15. writes about this victory "A FW-189 A-2 (Wk. Nr. 183) of NAGr. 13 is heavily damaged in this sector". In reality this plane is only 20% damaged at Kuznetsy (52.83063, 35.9150651 / source: B.Arch. RL-2-III 1191, n°10, p.98) 17 km SW of Orel, i.e. 47 km more SSW of the French pilots' claim (7 km S of Znamenskoe).
29. 17/07/1943: Yagodnaya - Krasnikovo: FW-190 - Albert. NSIV.
30. 17/07/1943: Znamenskaïa: FW-190 - Albert - Préziosi. NSIV.
That day, Luftwaffe (Luftflotte 6), lost 3 FW-190s in the Orel region, two in the 15th VA sector and 1 third from the I./Schl.G.1 in the 1st VA sector, but 45 km SSW of Znamenskpe and moreover the pair Albert-Preziosi engages two FW-190s from JG.51.
31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.
The pilots considered it damaged, the ground troops confirmed the victory, confusing it with the Ju-88 of 7./K.G.51 which suffered damage and made an emergency landing in the vicinity of Krasnikovo (Stolbtchee).
32. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk- FW-190 - Lefèvre. NSIV.
The exact location of the fight is 3-4 km south of Pavlinovo. This day the Luftwaffe only lost in this sector the Fw 190A-5 n° 525 (100%) of 15(Span)/JG-51 in Pl.Qu.35488 (3 km north of Pavlinovo) following a collision with a Soviet plane during combat. The time of the collision is 4:25 p.m. (3:25 p.m. German time), so it cannot be the one damaged by Lieutenant Lefèvre because the French landed at their airfield at 3:50 p.m.
33. 21/08/1943: Spas Demensk - Ju-87- Largeau.NSIV.
The exact location is between Pavlinovo and Tserkovshchina. This day the 3./St.G.1 loses the Ju-87 D3, n°110037 (100%) south of Potchinok (there is a Potchinok in the sector of operation of the "Normandie", coordinates: 54.375 33.679). This Ju-87 made a forced landing following DCA fire, the crew unhurt (sources: R-2-III-1192, p.50, n°76). This Ju-87 is counted as damaged in the March Journal and does not appear in the list of damaged aircraft in the 1st VA report.

Results: as of July 17, 1943, out of 33 official victories, 3 downed planes could be identified and 1 others identified as damaged. If we apply the ratio of 1/10 to the 273 victories of Normandie-Niemen we arrive at 27 victories, which is close to the 33 victories of the Ile de France Group.
At first glance for the year 1943, under the leadership of Pierre Pouyade, the number of victories identified will be higher.

Ranking of drivers by identified victories:

1°) Pierre Pouyade: 1.5 victories.
2°) Marcel Albert: 1 victory, 1 plane damaged.
3°) Didier Béguin: 0.5 victory.


to help understand my conclusions, diagram of the organization of the VVS during the Orel offensive

[Franek Grabowski]

As already noted, there is an issue of aircraft recognition. Due to heat of combat, pilots were not always able to recognise aircraft encountered, and more than often mistook the types. So, it is always better to list single and twin engined losses rather than to look for particular types. Of course, there is always an issue of presence of other friendly units and their claims and losses.

[Courtois Laurent]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

As already noted, there is an issue of aircraft recognition. Due to heat of combat, pilots were not always able to recognise aircraft encountered, and more than often mistook the types. So, it is always better to list single and twin engined losses rather than to look for particular types. Of course, there is always an issue of presence of other friendly units and their claims and losses.

Hello Franek,
you are absolutely right, in general I already do it, for example, if an Hs126 and claims, I also look for the He-46, Fi-156 and other "trapanelles".
I will do another check taking into account the categories "single-engine", "light twin-engine", "heavy twin-engine" and "tapranelles (lowly powered aircraft).

[Courtois Laurent]

Identification of the 30th Victory:
On July 19, a Ju-88 was shot down by GC3. The report from the 303rd IAD for the day indicates that the Ju-88 was only damaged, this is what the French pilots indicated, "the plane disappeared into the clouds with a smoking engine". Victory is then confirmed by the troops on the ground. Certainly the 108 SD which reported during the day 4 planes shot down fighters (Perhaps the 4 planes claimed by the Luftwaffe around Viazovaya (54625)). This day the 7./K.G.1 lost the Ju-88 A4 n°3647 at Stolbtcheye (4 km NE of Krasnikon 53.4236 35.7522 (R-2-III-1191, p.61, n°46) due to a emergency landing following engine fires. The crew was unhurt, the plane was 40% damaged. This explains why ground troops reported the fall of a Ju-88 in the Krasnikovo sector.

31. 19/07/ 1943 Znamenskaïa : Ju -88 – Léon / de Forges / Albert / Risso / Bon. NSIV.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Laurent

As to your post above (No 19) I assume you mean claim no 31 (and not 30)

Also since my knowledge of the Eastern Front and Russian place names is lousy, was there also a Krasnikon?
Just curious since you elsewhere consistently seems to refer to a place called Krasnikovo.

Also in post 16 you have reversed two dates (as 07/17/1943 instead of 17/07/1943).
Claim 28) was that really made for a Bf-189, or is it a misprint by you?

Cheers
Stig