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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#11
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Eugen,
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Documents were lost and it is not possible to verify the data. And I don`t know anything about further Polish losses you could attribute to I./ZG 1 on the 4th September (up to the mentioned P.23 in Naklo area). Regards, Marius |
#12
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Privet Evgeniy
Now you may see by yourself. There are no documents, this causing some claims speculative, but there are documents making them not speculative. Be careful with those data and take them with a grain of salt. Regarding combat of 5 September - there is an account of an airman who took part in the battle and who was killed in 1941, so the account could not have been written long after the events. More, in the account the one may find a suggestion, that one of the fallen pilots may have been hit by enemy (it was considered to be more 'honorary' to be killed by enemy and not by an ordinary collision), but otherwise it is extremelly clear that the cause was a collision. Concerning other possible kills of ZG1, kpt. pil. Leśniewski is one distinctive possibility, shot down by Me 110s on 4 September, some other aircraft being shot up. I have scans of original 1939 documents. History is not one sided. I am sending a note to moderators to have a closer look on the thread. |
#13
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
We had an unproductive discussion with Franek before a long time concerning the Polish unit III/4 and the German opponent I./ZG 1. It seems it brought completely nothing.
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By the way, this "maybe-collision" is completely uninteresting concerning the victories of I./ZG 1. Por. Okrzeja of the 112 eskadra was one of the fallen pilots, but he fought with Do 17`s of I./KG 2. Quote:
For them both types - the unknown Bf 110 as well as the Do 17 - were just Do 17`s (look to the 2th September 1939 fightings were all Bf 110`s of ZG 1 were described as Do 17`s). The so called "Bf 110" on the 4th were just Bf 109`s of I.(J)/LG 2. The German unit claimed 3 victories. The "Bf 110" stated by Rolski was just a mistake. German records so far do not confirm that I./ZG 1 flew this sortie. Quote:
(almost) useless. Quote:
Best wishes, Marius |
#14
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Gentlemen, this is an interesting discussion, I hope we can keep it civilized.
__________________
Ruy Horta 12 O'Clock High! And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine; A being breathing thoughtful breath, A traveller between life and death; |
#15
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Heya!
Why are you so agressive? Take it easy Yep, there is a lot of missindefication during early war For example Bf110 from 4./SKG 210, shot down by Kapitan Kruglov from 124 IAP, was identificated as Do 215 Its all clear over Poland & Denmark. Lets talk about Wesern claims of Gruppe - Dunkirk, Holland... |
#16
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Eugen,
the problem is the following: there exist no work describing the whole air war or Luftwaffe activities over France and the low countries in 1940. Regarding the Bf 110 we have the book Zerstörer written by John Vasco. But it is clear, still many details are not known so far and even more questions remain unanswered. The Luftwaffe in Poland 1939 was the same problem until I started my investigation some more than 15 years ago. I hope someone will make it similar about the French campaign. Franek wrote about important scans of documents. I am very interested. Please give Franek the possibility to present these documents here on the forum. I think we can discuss them more or less all together. I am also interested in the action of Bf 110 over France. I hope someone can present us some unknown details. And Eugen, who is aggressive here? Best wishes, Marius |
#17
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Evgeniy, simply the war is not over for some people.
Ruy, I will do all my best. Quote:
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#18
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Hi,
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Kpt.Opulski wrote something very interesting about the fight of his section (Pawlak published it in "Polskie eskadry"). Also Lokuciewski of the other section saw the death of his comrade Okrzeja and described it in his memoires. Nothing about a collision. Quote:
kpr.Gorecki damaged forcelanded [I./ZG 1], pchor.Nowakowski shot down [I./ZG 1], por.Okrzeja shot down [I./KG 2], st.szer.Cichocki crashlanded [I./ZG 1] Nothing about a collision. Also this Polish document brings a little bit confusion. But when you compare this with German records, many questions find their answers; The document only reports about a fight between 5 P.11 and 3 Dornier Do 215 (sic!). This was surely the section of kpt.Opulski (5 pilots). The 3 Do 215 were in fact 3 Ju 87 of IV./LG 1. According to the document 1 Do 215 flew away with smoking engine. Indeed, 1 Ju 87B of IV./LG 1 was damaged and forcelanded on Polish territory. There is nothing about the other fight between 6 P.11 and Do 17`s of I./KG 2. The reason is - I suppose - exactly the same time of both engagements. And the mission was counted as one although two sections of the unit flew in two different directions. Quote:
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Apparently the earlier combat was fought against Ju 87`s of 9./StG 2, the later against Ju 87`s of 7. and 8./StG 2 and Bf 109`s. Polish losses were the following: por.Pisarek damaged forcelanded [9./StG 2], ppor.Pniak damaged forcelanded, ppor.Kogut damaged forcelanded, kpt.Lesniewski shot down [1.(J)/LG 2] Regards, Marius |
#19
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
Here claims 1.(J)/LG 2:
04.09.39 Fw. Hugo Frey: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24 Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry 04.09.39 Ltn. Klaus Quaet-Faslem: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24 Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry 04.09.39 Ofw. Hermann Guhl: 1 1.(J)/LG 2 PZL P-24 Poczalkowo area - Refer: Prien/Bock re. Perry |
#20
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Re: I./ZG 1 claims in 1939 - 1940 - any info?
One correction:
Lt.Quaet-Faslems victory was not confirmed. I worked on this Poland victory list together with Mr. Bock. Regards, Marius |
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