Ta152 loss

Originally Posted by Reiner

Hello
I do`nt believe that Shaw shot down Sattler. The Combat report from Shaw states that he shot down a Fw190 with east course. I think, it was the Fw190 of Skupina, which crashed near Garlin. Eyewitnesses from Garlin saw a lone Fw190 with east course and two "American" fighterplanes. If Shaw know his position not exactly so he could mistook Grabow with Ludwigslust. 10km SE of the town what he means as Ludwigslust there is Garlin. For me W/O never shot down Ofw.Sattler and his Ta152.

Greetings, Rene

An enough worthwhile hypothesis, but there are some points which make me think that it's unlikely it's right.

1) First, Shaw didn't simply reported that the Fw190 was flying towards East, he reported that the E/A repeatedly broke from East to West (even before the fatal approach of the Tempest).

"I saw a single Fw.190 flying east at deck level ... The 190 broke ... the E/A straightened out east ... the 190 broke rather later & again to port ... It was a full deflection shot & I opened fire ... I fired a long burst ... flames appeared from the port side".

It means that the Fw was hit on the port (i.e. left) side while he was flying toward West (after some previous breaks), by Shaw positioned South respect to the German and flying towards NW (to fire his deflection shot).
So we haven't a Fw "flying with East course" but a repeatedly turning Fw that was shot down while flying towards West.

2) The repeated breaking is really consistent with an unaware pilot (Sattler) trying to catch sight of his comrades already engaged into the near battle.
Had Skupina, flying alone, quite so good reasons to break again and again instead of running straigth toward East?

3) Garlin is about 20 km far from to Ludwigslust, not just 10 km.
20 km, especially into that war scene, are a not-so-negligible distance even for planes, for example is the DOUBLE distance from Neustadt-Glewe to Ludwigslust.
And is HALF of the distance from Ludwigslust to Perleberg, which is the area covered by the Armed Recce of the four 486 Squadron Tempests. So the correct location identification given by Shaw for Garlin area in his report should have been "at half route from Ludwigslust to Perleberg", not near Ludwigslust, even if Shaw didn't knew the name of Garlin village.
So, could it be that Shaw mistook Garlin for Ludwigslust? Of course it could be, but IMHO it's more likely that he didn't.

4) We would also think that witnesses did't recognize British insigna and mistook Tempest for "American planes".
Again, it could be possible but Tempests are so different from P-47 or P-51, for colour (camouflaged vs usually silver) even more than for shape and insigna, that German citizen used to look every day at enemy aircraft on their heads, at low heigths, should had little difficulty to recognize correctly.
Obviously, it could be that "American" here just means "enemy Allied planes" but this should be verified.

All in all, I think that the "Skupina hypothesis" could have no more than 20-30% chance to be right.

However, more investigations would be good.

[Reiner]

Hello
I would like to get in contact with the creator of this website:
http://clocloz.altervista.org/histor...14-4-1945.html

I took a look at the interesting drawings of the dogfights betweenTempest and Ta152. I ask myself, if Shaw and Brooker shot down Sattler, why they leaved the area without help for Mitchell and Short? There was certainly radio contact between them?
I stick to my "Skupina" hypothesis, it's just a hypothesis. Both swarms have separated for armed reconnaissance. One in the direction of Ludwigslust and one towards Perleberg. Mitchell and Short were attacked by the Ta152. The other two were too far south east and came too late for help. They certainly would not have left their comrades alone.
Greetings, Rene

[Reiner]

Hello
Since my last post in 2018, I have looked a little more closely at the events of April 14, 1945. I have read the ORB of the 486th sqdn and the combat reports. I have also read Cescottie's statements from the 1992 Jägerblatt, which are different in his 2012 book "Langstreckenflug", where he confirms Willi Reschke's report. Two weeks ago I was in Neustadt-Glewe and was able to determine where Josef Sattler died. This is not 8 km SW of Neustadt-Glewe as often reported, but about 10 km NW of Neustadt-Glewe. The air combat between Short/Mitchell and the two Ta152 where north of Ludwigslust, while Brooker and Shaw shot down a Fw190 10 miles (16 km) SE of Ludwigslust. Sattler and Mitchell were buried on April 16, 1945. Not side by side! Sattler was buried in the honorary section and Mitchell was buried as an "unknown Englishman" in the section where Russian prisoners were buried.
Rene

[stephen f. polyak]

Originally Posted by Reiner

Hello
Since my last post in 2018, I have looked a little more closely at the events of April 14, 1945. I have read the ORB of the 486th sqdn and the combat reports. I have also read Cescottie's statements from the 1992 Jägerblatt, which are different in his 2012 book "Langstreckenflug", where he confirms Willi Reschke's report. Two weeks ago I was in Neustadt-Glewe and was able to determine where Josef Sattler died. This is not 8 km SW of Neustadt-Glewe as often reported, but about 10 km NW of Neustadt-Glewe. The air combat between Short/Mitchell and the two Ta152 where north of Ludwigslust, while Brooker and Shaw shot down a Fw190 10 miles (16 km) SE of Ludwigslust. Sattler and Mitchell were buried on April 16, 1945. Not side by side! Sattler was buried in the honorary section and Mitchell was buried as an "unknown Englishman" in the section where Russian prisoners were buried.
Rene

Thanks for the follow-up

[Nick Beale]

If you don't already know it, I'd recommend Axel Urbanke's excellent article on Ta 152 operations in Luftwaffe im Focus No. 29.

[Reiner]

Hi Nick

Yes, I know the article from Luftwaffe in Focus. I wouldn't call the article excellent. Some things are new to me, others aren't. The map sketches are very bad. Sachau is west of Berlin and not south-west. I could name a few other things, but I don't want it. Another small example. In the same LiF page 2 and 3. Additions/corrections to Edition 17, photo L2. This non-commissioned officer is a radio operator and not a pilot. His radio operator badge is clearly visible. Now to April 14, 1945. This article is based entirely on Cescotti's statement in Jägerblatt 3/1992. That is wrong! In 2012, Cescotti confirmed Willi Reschke's statement in his book "Langstreckenflug". I don't want to say much about the individual passages, but I don't think Cescotti could see the air battle more than 10 km away from the ground. It is fairly flat land, with forests and the town is in between. The fact is that Sattler's crashsite is 10km NW of Neustadt Glewe. I was told where Sattler and Mitchell crashed, but I didn't have time to visit them in person. They are actually a few hundred meters apart. No, this April 14, 1945 near Ludwigslust was differently than it was portrayed in the LiF.
Rene

[Franek Grabowski]

Rene
Slightly off topic, are you particularly interested in the area Schwerin-Neustadt, or is it just a coincidence?
Franek

[Reiner]

Hello Franek
The Schwerin-Neustadt Glewe area is not my area. I have been searching and researching north and east of Berlin for more than 30 years. I am in Garlin several times a year and Kurt-Georg Skupina, killed in air combat on April 14, 1945, is buried there. This grave piqued my interest and so I carried out further research when I had time.
Rene

[Franek Grabowski]

Hello
Sorry for late response, but I got 500 return.
A pity, as I would really like to solve few issues from the area, and I think only a local person could answer questions.
NE Berlin you say, I may have few, rather really few questions, if you do not mind answering.
Cheers
Franek

[Reiner]

Hi Franek
How can I help you?
Rene