French H-75A-4 aircraft

[Alex Smart]

Hello CJE,

Thanks for the reply.

I see that our data is not that far out.

My quote from Air Enthusiast 34 years old info re the C-75A-4's-

only six had been officially taken on strength

and your more up to date remark -

More than 4 A-4s were pressed into service.

Alex

[takata_1940]

Hello everybody,

Alex :
I see that our data is not that far out.
My quote from Air Enthusiast 34 years old info re the C-75A-4's-
only six had been officially taken on strength
and your more up to date remark -
More than 4 A-4s were pressed into service.

CJE is right Alex as your data about H-75s' are mostly outdated and beside, I never read anything accurate in many US/English publications up till now on this subject. Almost everything is incorrect from the French orders to the deliveries of this airplane :

- The first French Air Commission contract was #1035/8 from Sept.9, 1938 was signed for 100 airframes, propellers, spare parts and tools ammounting for $4,820,691.51 ; it was fully delivered and paid (in advance) ; this contract was redesignated later by the joint Anglo-French Air Commission as contract F-697.
Those airplanes were designated H-75A-1 by Curtiss-Wright Corp. Buffalo N.Y. and they received French Army S/ns 1-100 in Buffalo with Factory C/ns 12798/12897.

- The second contract was #6 (F-160) from Mar.5, 1939 was signed for 100 airframes, propellers and spare parts ammounting $4,007,586.88 ; it was fully delivered and paid. Those airplanes were designated H-75A-2 by Curtiss and received S/ns 101-200 with Factory C/ns 12932/13031. (What is your source Buz ?!)

- The third contract was #37 (F-273) from Oct.5, 1939 was signed for 630 airframes, propellers and spare parts ammounting for $23,464,560, on which $16,601,297.60 was paid in advance.
On this total of 630, only 530 airframes were ordered as H-75s' and a hundred as H-81s'. After further negociations with Curtiss and US Authorities, the French Air Commission was allowed to reduce the H-75s' number by 130 and obtained the same amount of H-81s' instead. The final deal was then reached with the manufacturer by picking the Curtiss-Wright R-1820 G205A engine for 265 of the remaining H-75s' and by adding another 20 H-75s' with a new contract #53 (F-158), Nov.15, 1939 which included 20 airframes, 20 R-1820 and 12 sets of spare wing panels ; the bill amounted for $1,024,560 more, on which $521,400 was paid in advance.

Now we can summarize the schedule for contracts #37 (F-273) & #53 (F-158) as :
- 135 H-75A-3, French Army S/ns 201-335 with Factory C/ns 13671/13805 ;
- 285 H-75A-4, with French H-751 designation because of the new engine, French Army S/ns 1-285 and factory C/ns 13806/14090 ;
- 230 H-81s', factory C/ns 14091/14220 and 14446/14545 ;

So what about the deliveries ?
- 135 H-75A-3 were delivered to and reached France.
- 81 H-751 were delivered to France and 204 diverted to Britain.
- the total order of H-81 was diverted to Britain.

Now, I guess it was more than correct when CJE wrote this : "More than 4 A-4s were pressed into service."

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

[Alex Smart]

Hi,

When I went to school six was more than four which is what was in my first posting.

While I do not wish in any way to start any kind of dissagreement over this I stand by the information I have to hand in the books and magazines that I have.
The details that you give here today , mostly is given in the Air Enthusiast issues that I have and also the Air Britain book on Lease lend.

Thanks anyway for confirmation of info.

Alex

[Modeldad]

I believe Cuny and Beauchamp (Curtiss Hawk 75; Docavia Edition) also indicate that 5 or 6 A-4s / 751 were put in service.

So perhaps the issue is the difference between the number that arrived, and the number actualy put on the line (75 still in crates?)

[Buz]

Oliver

- The second contract was #6 (F-160) from Mar.5, 1939 was signed for 100 airframes, propellers and spare parts ammounting $4,007,586.88 ; it was fully delivered and paid. Those airplanes were designated H-75A-2 by Curtiss and received S/ns 101-200 with Factory C/ns 12932/13031. (What is your source Buz ?!)

My source is the "Curtiss Billing Ledger" - which I think in the realm of sources is a little better than most

Buz

[takata_1940]

Hello Alex,
Well, I get the funny side of you post with "four and six" but I also read what you quoted from Air Enthusiast :

"From Air Enthusiast Vol 2 No:1 (Jan 72).
"...Thirty were in process of being unloaded at La Rochelle in June when the vessel that had transported them across the Atlantic was sunk, taking most of the fighters with it to the bottom of the harbour."

This part is a pure Legend as it is supposed to be the Champlain sinking but I can tell you that absolutely no H-75s' were ever on board of this merchant when she sank and all arrived safe. I verified this particular fact myself on the archives. Albeit you can read the same story on the best French source mentioned by Modeldad (Cuny / Beauchamps)

"Also of the 135 A-3s two were kept in the USA for testing."
This other point in wrong too : all A-3 were delivered.

and from your other post :
"You may have made discoveries in the USA but then the aircraft was built there so that is where the information would be."

In fact, most of the discoveries came from the French archives ; the last information provided from the USA is the one given to The Fighter Collection (S. Grey) by the Curtiss-Wright Historical Association which give the C/n 12881 to the French H-75A-1 N°82...
Again, it's proved to be wrong. Lionel Persyn found exactly what this recovered wreck C/n is : 13887 ; it's a A-4 transfered from North Africa after being re-engined with a Pratt & Whitney R-1830 in 1945. There is zero doubt now that the real N°82 C/n 12879 was the Finnish CUc-568.

On the other part, I agree that Air Britain "The British Air Commission and Lend-Lease" is the most accurate source about what was delivered to Britain, beside it's mentioned in the Mohawk profile part that 204 were Mohawk III and IV which contradict their listing were it's 204 Mohawk IV (French) plus 5 Mohawk III (from Norway). There is little confusion with their numbers and type given as they did not sort out that contract F-158 was only Mohawk IV.

For a complete and detailed account of what was finnaly used by l'Armée de l'Air, you will have to wait for the publication of Lionel Persyn's work which is outstanding concerning this aircraft in French service. I guess CJE will publish an article about that in the near future.

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

[takata_1940]

Hello Buz,

Originally Posted by Buz

Oliver

- The second contract was #6 (F-160) from Mar.5, 1939 was signed for 100 airframes, propellers and spare parts ammounting $4,007,586.88 ; it was fully delivered and paid. Those airplanes were designated H-75A-2 by Curtiss and received S/ns 101-200 with Factory C/ns 12932/13031. (What is your source Buz ?!)

My source is the "Curtiss Billing Ledger" - which I think in the realm of sources is a little better than most

Buz

Thank you for your answer and excuse my ignorance of this particular source that I don't know about. Any chance to find it somewhere ?

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

[Lucien]

The exact number of H-75 A-4 (H-751 in Armée de l’Air parlance) taken into account by the Armée de l’Air before France’s collapse is not know with precision. Here are a few facts extracted from Jean Cuny and Gérard Beauchamp excellent book Curtiss H-75 Hawk (Docavia/Editions Larivière, Paris, 1985) and from my own researches :

- On May 1st 1940, H-751 s/n 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 left NYC on board of SS Île de France destination unknow but most probably Saint-Nazaire.
- On May 30th 1940, H-751 s/n 1, 26, 27, 28 to 52, 53 to 58 were awaiting shipment in NYC harbor.
- About 30 H-751 were loaded on SS Champlain. On June 17th, the ship was hit by a mine and sunk in front of La Rochelle. On June 21st the wreck was definitively destroyed by torpedoes lauched by German submarine U.65.
- About 25 H-751 of which 14 incomplete were unloaded in Casablanca, Marocco, a few days after the armistice.
- On July 1st 1940, H-751 s/n 15 was at Saint-Laurent-de-la-Salanque airfield in the SW of France (I personnaly find dubious this assessment).
- On June 16th 1940, the French Navy aircraft carrier Béarn and cruiser Jeanne d’Arc left Halifax (Canada), bound for Brest. On board of those vessels were loaded :
Béarn :44 Curtiss CW.77 (SBC-4 Helldiver), 25 Stinson 105 all crated, 6 Brewster Buffalo destined to the Belgian AF and 17 Curtiss H-751 of which serial numbers were : 59 to 64, 83, 85, 86, 88 to 90, 92 to 94, 96 and 97. The last two, were unassembled and crated.
Jeanne d’Arc : 6 Curtiss H-751 s/n 79 to 82, 84 and 86, all unassembled and crated and 8 Stinson 105 also crated.
The Curtiss H-751 were part of an order placed on October 5th 1939 by the French government for 530 machines. The balance of this order, as well as others, was later transferred to the British purchasing commission in the USA.

- On June 18th, Brest harbour fell into German hands and both vessels were diverted to Fort-de-France in Martinique where they arrived the 27th. On 29th Jeanne d’Arc was ordered to sail to Pointe-à-Pitre in Guadeloupe. Both ships, as well as others, were to remain in French Antilles until 1943.

- Soon after their arrival in their respective harbours, Béarn and Jeanne d’Arc were unloaded. In Fort-de-France, the Curtiss CW-77, the Brewster Buffaloes and the 15 assembled H-751 were rolled to a field at the Pointe des Sables and stored in the open. The two crated H-751 and the Stinsons were left on board the Béarn. In Pointe-à-Pitre, the six Curtiss crated and the Stinsons were stored in a harbour warehouse.

- This situation remained unchanged until 1942. Under tropical climatic conditions, the aircraft stored in the open were slowly rotting and were no longer airworthy. On May 12th, due to the misunderstanding of an order, all the aircraft stored at the Pointe des Sables were sabotaged ! The 15 H-751s were heavily damaged by fire.

- In 1943, following the Anglo/American landings in Morocco and Algeria of November 1942, French Antilles joined fighting France and orders was given to the Naval authorities in Martinique to ship to Morocco whatever aeronautical equipments was available in Fort-de-France and Pointe-à-Pitre (including parts recuperated at the Pointe des Sables destroyed a/c). In August, the six H-751 stored in Pointe-à-Pitre were transported in Fort-de-France for shipment to Marocco.

Thus, the eight H-751s crated which escaped the sabotages were shipped as follows :
- On March 12th 1944, s/n 96 and 97, (ex Béarn) on SS Oregon which left FdF, bound for Casablanca, were she arrived on March 30th.
- On December 12th 1944, s/n 79, 80 and 81, (ex Jeanne d’Arc) on SS Sagittaire which left FdF, bound for Casablanca, were she arrived on January 19th 1945.
- On June 15th 1945, s/n 82, 84 and 86, (ex Jeanne d’Arc) on SS Hamlin Garland which left FdF, bound for Marseille. Date of arrival unknown but somewhere between the end of June and beginning of July.

So, at least 8 additionnal H751 were taken into account by the Armée de l’Air. However, the fate of those a/c remains a triffle mysterious. It has been written that due to reliability problems with the Wright R-1820 engines ands spare parts shortage, they a/c were remotorized with Pratt & Whitney R-1830 of which stocks were still available and put into service in flying schools and other miscellaneous units.

One last thing, although denied by its present ownner and a few French “experts”, most of the knowledgeable French historians are convinced that the H-75 magnificently restored in the UK is in fact the H-751 s/n 82 remotorized in France after WWII and put into service at Cazaux. But that’s another story...

[Bronsky]

Originally Posted by Lucien

- On May 1st 1940, H-751 s/n 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 left NYC on board of SS Île de France destination unknow but most probably Saint-Nazaire.

Only the 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8. I'm not CJE's friend and I didn't have access to Takata's research in the French Navy's archives, but I did look at the document mentioned by CJE (and of which Takata is also aware). If you can wait a few months for Lionel Persyn's book, it will update your Docavia.

The 6 as well as the 9 to 25 left on May 10 on the Pierre Louis-Dreyfus.

Originally Posted by Lucien

- On May 30th 1940, H-751 s/n 1, 26, 27, 28 to 52, 53 to 58 were awaiting shipment in NYC harbor.

The 1 + the 26-58 left on 25 May on the Indochinois, which sailed with convoy HX46 and reached St-Nazaire on 11 June. None were loaded on Champlain. I'd be very interested in the source for this urban legend. The Champlain did sink as reported, and it may have carried various boxes labelled "Curtiss" that would have been evacuated (I still need to check on that). But no H-75, that's a definite.

Originally Posted by Lucien

- On June 16th 1940, the French Navy aircraft carrier Béarn and cruiser Jeanne d’Arc left Halifax (Canada), bound for Brest. On board of those vessels were loaded :

Originally Posted by Lucien

Béarn :44 Curtiss CW.77 (SBC-4 Helldiver), 25 Stinson 105 all crated, 6 Brewster Buffalo destined to the Belgian AF and 17 Curtiss H-751 of which serial numbers were : 59 to 64, 83, 85, 86, 88 to 90, 92 to 94, 96 and 97. The last two, were unassembled and crated.
Jeanne d’Arc : 6 Curtiss H-751 s/n 79 to 82, 84 and 86, all unassembled and crated and 8 Stinson 105 also crated.

Minor nitpick: the 86 is reported twice in your list. The one that sailed in Jeanne d'Arc is the 87.

Fully agreed about the rest of the post, including the last paragraph

[takata_1940]

Hello Lucien,

I did read your excellent article "Les oubliés des Antilles" published few years ago and it was very well researched, however, every research in history should be considered as a work in progress and you should not be so affirmative with that statement :

The exact number of H-75 A-4 (H-751 in Armée de l’Air parlance) taken into account by the Armée de l’Air before France’s collapse is not know with precision.

Actually, Lionel Persyn is probably able to make a very close statement on each case due to his own extensive research on this subject. Moreover, Louis Capdeboscq and myself had researched another part of this case which cross-checked everything he was able to find out about that shipping and deliveries question. So I'm more than confident that this case will be almost entirely resolved pretty soon and published. Take in mind that the whole question do not belong to a single document but it's based on many that are showing a barely complete picture of those facts with individual and collective evidence for each aircraft.

- On May 1st 1940, H-751 s/n 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 left NYC on board of SS Île de France destination unknow but most probably Saint-Nazaire.

For example, the shipping document for this particular cargo is showing few discrepancies with your list ;
Here is the following H-751s' carried, beside thirteen of the last fourteen H-75A-3 :
ILE DE FRANCE du 1er Mai 1940
N°02, c/n 13807,
N°03, c/n 13808,
N°04, c/n 13809,
N°05, c/n 13810,
N°07, c/n 13812,
N°08, c/n 13813,
All of which were assembled in Toulouse and issued to retreating units in their way to North Africa. Here comes certainly the legend that only six H-751 ever reached France.

I won't comment on all your other points as I mentioned, we'll have to wait for this to be published soon, but I can confirm that the Champlain had no H-75s' on board when she sank and that all eighty one H-751 which were on hand by the French at the time of the armistice are localized and the final fate of very few is still uncertain. More clearly, the very few that we are still trying to address the fate are part of those which were captured by the Germans.

Finally, I'll take this occasion to ask every reader of this thread some help if they are able to contribute in providing primary German sources about any H-75 captured. We will appreciate it very much !

Regards,
Olivier Bacca.

PS : Hello Bronsky !! :-)