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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#11
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Johannes,
Your words: The Luftwaffe, were far more accurate in their claims than most other airforces. There are plenty of instances of the Luftwaffe overclaiming as bad as any other airforce, and plenty of instances of other airforces claiming just as accurately as the Luftwaffe. Many publications from recent times deal with both sides of some of the various aerial campaigns the Luftwaffe was involved in. Suffice it to say, can we really continue to hold to the contention that the German "system" was ever so accurate? On 15th February 1943 II./JG 2 encountered the US 1st and 82nd FGs and claimed an entire TEN victories over P-38 Lightnings. Of that ten victories EIGHT were confirmed by this "ever-so-fantastic" German confirmation system. NOT ONE SINGLE P-38 WENT DOWN IN THE ENGAGEMENT. SOURCE: Focke Wulf 190 in North Africa by Andrew Arthy and Morten Jessen. pp. 108, 160-161 On 9th July 1944 II./JG 26 encountered 453 sqn RAAF over Normandy and Emil "Bully" Lang claimed 3 Spitfires shot down. All of them were confirmed by the "ever-so-rigid" German confirmation system but again, bugger-all were actually shot down. SOURCES: JG 26 War Diary Part 2 by Donald Caldwell pp. 299-300 2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 2 pp. 212-213 by Christopher Shores and Chris Thomas. Your words again: What I have are evidence of 66650 confirmed claims. In the light of the above, the concept of "confirmed claims" is well and truly an utterly useless construct by now... |
#12
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Johannes
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Best regards Franek |
#13
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
It's a lot safer if you translate anerkannt as "recognised" or "accredited", I think.
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#14
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Guys
Firstly Franek it is true that crash-sites were investigated, claims against the Russian's were usually behind enemy lines, so no chance there, with JG2 they claimed a lot over the sea, again not much chance to investigate there. As Nick states Emil Lang was with JG26, yet still managed to overclaim. We(TOCH) had established that Lang had a couple of months of huge claims in Russia, this was worked with his rottenflieger Reinhold Hoffmann a pure case of each confirming the others claims.....mostly non-existant, yet another of Lang's rottenflieger Alfred Gross doesn't appear to have been part of this, when Hoffmann and Lang part company their claims became unspectacular! You would imagine that he would not be able to achieve such crimes with JG26, however he was with the Stab.II./JG26, and very possibly flew only with Alfred Gross, therefore able to maintain the deception within a generally honest Geschwader. As Nick has established II./JG2 had a horrendous record of overclaiming in Afrika, but the JG26 as above......one man making the others look bad. The ever so fantastic claims system should work, but they didn't consider like minded abusers of the system, basically you couldn't do it alone. As for the Luftwaffe being part of an evil regime, I should imagine that there was a higher percentage of hard-liners here than in the army, but most pilots were not like this and only wanted to get through the war, and many not to talk about it again. Wasn't Heinz Knoke shunned at reunions for his political views! Anyway TOCH is to talk about the Luftwaffe not Nazism., but I have noticed that hard-liners were very often the worst over-claimers. regarding other Airforces overclaiming just check USAAF gunners claims 340 claims one day to Luftwaffe twenty loses, and what about Douglas Bader, seems every Nation has it's liars. With Georg-Peter Eder all I am trying to establish is where the twelve jet kills data came from? As to his claims there pattern doesn't look like an overclaimers i.e huge numbers over a short period...….again opportunism with a corruptible rottenflieger, Eder seems not to have used a regular rottenflieger, and as Nick points-out III./JG2 was the least scoring of JG2's Gruppen……………….but unless expertly cross-examined I don't know the truth, and contrary to what you say claims are being cross-examined......by Nick for a start. Kind Regards Johannes |
#15
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
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You cannot fully cross-check claims/victories vs losses without combat reports and narratives. Coincidence of time and place may be misleading. It is simple. Best regards Franek |
#16
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hello Johannes,
It will be up to you to determine if the following pieces of information are connected or not, and if they are relevant to your inquiry. 1. From flamesofwar.com Stormbirds: the Messerschmitt Me 262 "Stormvogel" with Mike Haught & James Brown: "My first kill on the Me 262 came almost by accident, you could say. I had taken off in an attempt to intercept a high-flying reconnaissance Lightning. Ground-control vectored me on the target faultlessly. Not that it was difficult to spot, for he was drawing a nice broad condensation trail in his wake. I approached out of the sun from behind and slightly above. When about 80 m (262 ft.) distant I ducked into the condensation trail, casting a quick glance down to check my instruments and gun indicator lights. When I looked up again a split second later, the Lightning filled my windscreen. I tried desperately to pull above him, but it was too late. There was an almighty crash, and then he disappeared. I waited for a few seconds, expecting a wing to fall off, or an engine to flame out. But nothing of the sort happened. Just a few nasty dents, but my crate continued to fly." -- Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder, 7. Jagdgeschwader 2. From post No. 12 by Jochen Prien in the following thread: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=43152 "... Hptm. Eder in particular did not file a claim on this day [6 Oct 1944], the P-38 that was mentioned earlier on as an 'early October claim' was the result of an erroneous reconstruction of an interview he gave many years ago, the correct date of this claim being 18 November 1944..." 3. From Prien etal., Die Jagdfliegerverbande … Teil 13/II, pp. 398-399: "Sonnabend, 18 November 1944... ...Das Kdo. Nowotny meldete am spaten Vormittag den Abschuss einer P-38 sudostlich Schleissheim durch einem Flugzeugfuhrer der 1. Staffel; bei dem abgeschossenen Zweimot. handelte es sich offenbar um einen allein eingeflogenen Aufklarer, moglicherweise Eine P-38 H der 154th (Weather) Recce. Sqd. der 15th USAAF..." best regards, Jim Last edited by Karoband; 23rd December 2018 at 12:15. |
#17
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi all
Hermann Buchner held some interesting conversations with Chris Shores when he stayed at Chis's house many years ago. One of the topics they discussed was Georg Eder. Buchner said he flew as no 2 to Eder when he was in JG 7, and that if Eder made a claim then there was little doubt in Buchners mind that it was a shot down aircraft. Unfortunately Buchner had no dates or any other details. Also I understand that after he died Eder's combat reports were sold by his widow, and that this collection included all of his jet claims, none of which I have seen. I have seen the forms (on the web) for the two Spitfires on 17 August 1944, which Johannes appears not to have judging from his helpful spreadsheet. Cheers Russell |
#18
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hello,
Here is one of the listings of Georg-Peter Eder's claims: http://www.cieldegloire.fr/001_eder_p_g.php Why do they bother? Col |
#19
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Col
Many thanks for getting involved. This abschusselist is a combination of details from the mikrofilms coupled with the jet claims, however I do not believe it is correct, the mikrofilms are reliable until 3rd December 1944, yet not a single claim is recorded for Eder, yet everybody else is included, if other pilots claims were excluded as well you can imagine a breakdown in recording the claims, but it seems to be just Eder's, therefore personally I have concluded that ALL his confirmed claims must have taken place after 3rd December 1944 yet before 22nd February 1945. Kind Regards Johannes |
#20
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Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?
Hi Jim
Thanks for your input. If this story is factual then the P-38 claim was not confirmed, in fact the story states that the P-38 disappeared, therefore Eder wouldn't have seen it crash. In the late 1970's I read in a book an Eder story, he shoots down four Allied aircraft, then gets shot-down himself, he thought from return-fire from a B-17 above him, he is badly wounded/injured and somebody within his ambulance congratulates him on his "four kills", yet this is not reflected in his abschusselist. Then he states that after his surrender the Americans starved him, which went on, but he states his weight dropped from 180 lbs to 98 lbs, he would himself have talked in kilograms anyway! Kind Regards Johannes |
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