Luftwaffe Kills in Tunisia Compared to Recorded USAAF P-38 losses

[Johannes]

Hi

I had known for some time that JG2's claims were basically dis-honest, but seems also that JG77 were bad also. JG53 and JG27 seem basically honest, and JG51 sort of in the middle, though even JG2 had a few honest pilots!

Good work done.

Johannes

[Mark R.]

Johannes,

I intend to do this for USAAF Spitfires and P-40 Warhawks. It should be interesting to see if the claims vary by aircraft type.

Thanks!

Mark

[Jim P.]

Is anyone else tired of this 'dishonest'/'unreliable claimers' BS? Give it a rest already. Claims are just that -claims. That they are officially credited - whoopdy doo - who's fault is that? Did guys overclaim? Yes, undeniably so, and not just the LW. Was it intentional? Well, we do know that at least with one LW unit the guys were apparently shooting at sand dunes, but when you're actually facing a real opponent? Don't think so. RAF BoB overclaiming has been documented as 3-1 - officialdom accepted it because it was decided it was good for the morale of the civilian population. The same ratio has been documented with the Flying Tigers. Put yourself in the cockpit of a fighter plane from which ever side you like. In a swirling dogfight with many opponents all around do you stare that 'claim' into the ground because you saw smoke or debris coming off your target? If you did more than likely you'd get yourself greased. Or do you move on to survive? How many times do you make a claim coming from the underside of an opponent, see hits and claim it as a vic, while one of your buddies hit the same target from the front or above? Did you see him? Highly unlikely in that hostile environment and you're looking to make sure someboby else is not on your tail. Trying to assign motive to pilots long dead from any side is just an exercise in futility, and rather unfair given that they can't defend their actions. This is true of all participants in WWII air warfare - LW, RAF Italian, USAAF or Japan. Get over it already. Document the air battles, the losses, the claims, and move on to the next.

[Andrew Arthy]

Very well said Jim, I couldn't agree more!

[John Beaman]

Amen, Brother Jim!!

[Dénes Bernád]

I would add on the top of what Jim has so rightfully summed up that these "dishonest", "unreliable", "overclaimer" and similar derogatory epithets tend mostly to be thrown at German pilots. Perhaps as a faint effort to vent frustration over the fact that there were so many successful German fighter pilots, whose reputation must be tarnished by suggesting that many of those 'kills' did not (could not) actually happen...

[Juha]

I beg to disagree somewhat with the latest posters. Being a bit cynical on human nature IMHO some tell less reliable stories than others because of various reasons (to gain benefits, to impress friends, simply being less objective to one’s own abilities or having less ability to see situation realistically etc) . Combat pilots being also only humans so IMHO that goes also with them.
On seeing smoke, on the Finnish Air Combat Report Form there were printed instructions which for example say that heavy smoke or even observed engine fire on target plane wasn’t enough for a sure kill claim.
And IMHO those pilots who got many kills were able to keep good situation awareness even while attacking and a good leader – wingman co-operation eased much the need for checking one’s six for the leader. Surely there were pilots who suffered target fixation but they probably got killed/badly wounded before they got really big scores.
I agree that trying to establish motivation of actions made some 65-70 years ago is very difficult and that our duty is not pass moral judgements but to trying to understand what happened in those now distant days. But info on claim accuracy differences also increase our knowledge.

Juha

[krichter33]

Excellent post Jim!

[Johannes]

Hi guys

On average only two in three claims end up with an actual crash, not just Luftwaffe pliots who on average were no worse, and probably a lot better than Allied pilots. But if you check Jg26's claims against allied losses they are very well matched, when you check Jg2's claims against allied losses the difference is so marked that one can only conclude co-operative fraud, also when both Jg26 and Jg2's claims are matched against Allied losses the 2 to 3 rule goes out of the window, but Allied losses are 1 in 2 claims. This is not based on any prejustice against any one pilot(how could it be when by statistics you know only of a problem, not who the problems are) it's just stating that Jg2 as a whole were not making accurate claims, in fact it is fraud as much as British MP's expense claims.
Afrika is the place where it can all be highlighted due to so few units. Regarding high claims being unbelievable you only have to look at how long it took, how many sorties and how many times they were themselves shot down to know that mathematically it is not only possible, but probable for there to be a few "100" plus guys in the West, these guys flew till they were dead, crippled or captured!
The fact that some Allied aces were themselves fraudsters doesn't detract from the fact that it was more wide spread in the Luftwaffe than first thought, and going by the Luftwaffe system you couldn't do it alone. Rudorffer who was a childhood hero of mine was able to do this by his rank, also he flew for the Staff of II./Jg54 in Russia possible with only one conrade for company (Kurt Tangermann) thus the opportunity was there, just compare there claims record together. I think it doesn't even come down to the individual, sometimes it would be a whole staffel, but on the other foot sometimes a whole staffel is extremely honest, and hurray to these guys!

Regards

Johannes

[Nick Beale]

Given that tens of thousands of people flew a fighter in the Second World War, I'd be surprised if there weren't a few frauds (and a few saints) in that number - every kind of person, in fact. But you just don't need deliberate fraud to explain most overclaiming. You could never prove it but after a career working in offices I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between JG 2 and JG 26 wasn't simply how each organisation interpreted and applied the rules before submitting a claim to the Abschusskommission.

I've posted research on I./JG 2's combat record in Italy (again about a 2:1 claim/kill ratio) but the thing I found hardest to account for was the unit's gaining a hotshot reputation with both sides within days of entering combat, which its overall results don't necessarily support.

A final point: even if (say) Hartmann "only" shot down 70 or 80, that is a spectacular performance when you recognise that most pilots never shot down any.