jet aircraft in Italy?

[edNorth]

Hi - just my ´two-pennies´ ...

Quick calculation: 380 mph indicated (x 1.609), is 611 km/h but at 11.000 feet translates to true airspeed (TAS) of 745 kmh but the GCI mesurement of 458 mph, groundspeed comes out as 736 km/h (he then had an slight headwind or crosswind component of about 10 km/h ~ 5.3 knots).

Possible piston aircraft can be Ju 88 T-3 with GM-1 or Ju 388 L-0 / Nacht - sufficent quantities of both types had been produced at that time - and delivered to the Luftwaffe - but who knows ?

Likely not an Ju 88 S as that was the Bomber version, but I remember reading on Ju 388 performance ´The maximum speed is 383 mph at 40,300 ft´ in the Vernaleken / Handig ´Ju 388 book´ or ttp://www.ju388.de/

That only makes (616 km/h) but finding exact performance at 11,000 feet (3.300 m) was harder. Same book P.181 has performance chart of Ju 188 J-3 with various engines but none reaches that at 3.300 m in level flight - just possible in a dive (and 770 km/h were recorded on Ju 388´s).

Is it possible this plane DIVED below the overcast (as stated abowe) - to take photos - reaching that speed whilst in the dive - levelling off - then the Mossie was able to chase and close in - but then outclimbing the Mossie in time - as Ju 388 L climbing ratio was indeed excellent! But then likely an T-3 if it can match that speed.

cheers
ed

[George Hopp]

Sorry, I meant a Ju 88 T recce a/c. But getting back on this site to make the correction has been a real bugger.

Well, if there were no night-flying jets there, as Ed said, what else is there? Hmm, Nick's return shows Me 410 A/B-3s in 2.(F)/122. Might they have been in the area? Because about 30 of them got GM-1 installations.

Thanks for the strength return on FAG 122, Nick.

Actually, it sounds a bit like "Washing machine Charlie" over Guadalcanal, which the Americans spent a lot of time and effort in trying to catch.

Cancel most of the above! At 11,000 feet and up to past 20,000 feet, GM-1 would be useless. So, it's back to the old reliables, the Ju 88/188.

[Nick Beale]

Ed: I'm as sure as I can be that it was not a Ju 388 L-0. In more than 20 years of researching the Italian campaign and using sources from both sides I've found no evidence at all of that type being delivered to Italy.

George: the KTB of 2.(F)/122 at Freiburg records no Me 410 flights at the relevant time. The Staffel's operations were all by day.

[George Hopp]

Thanks for that, Nick.

All the best,
George

[Nick Beale]

Anyone with an interest in this topic may like to look at the latest addition to my website.

"Kommando Sommer: the road to Italy" traces the story from the decision to deploy Arado 234s to Italy to the first recorded operation by Kommando Sommer.

The article makes use of a lot of new material that I've been researching over the last several months and among other things identifies the date that the first of the Kommando's jets arrived and the name of its pilot. It also makes a bit more sense of the sequence of orders and changes of mind in Germany that eventually led to Sommer getting the job.

[ju55dk]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Anyone with an interest in this topic may like to look at the latest addition to my website.

"Kommando Sommer: the road to Italy" traces the story from the decision to deploy Arado 234s to Italy to the first recorded operation by Kommando Sommer.

The article makes use of a lot of new material that I've been researching over the last several months and among other things identifies the date that the first of the Kommando's jets arrived and the name of its pilot. It also makes a bit more sense of the sequence of orders and changes of mind in Germany that eventually led to Sommer getting the job.

According to KTB G.d.A. Kdo. Sommer lost most of its material when the traintransport was attacked. It was then decided to send Kdo. Götz to Italy, with Sommer as KdoFührer. The Kdo. Sommer returned to Versuchsverband OKL!

Junker

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by ju55dk

According to KTB G.d.A. Kdo. Sommer lost most of its material when the traintransport was attacked. It was then decided to send Kdo. Götz to Italy, with Sommer as KdoFührer. The Kdo. Sommer returned to Versuchsverband OKL!

Junker

Yes I know (and when you read the article, you'll find it there) but the story is more complex than that and the KTB falls a long way short of telling the whole story.

[ju55dk]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

Yes I know (and when you read the article, you'll find it there) but the story is more complex than that and the KTB falls a long way short of telling the whole story.

Hi Nick.

A fine piece of work!!!

Junker

[maxjvb]

my witness was shure to saw a Me 262 in the late days of war at Orio al Serio airport Bergamo.

[veltro]

Sorry, but no Me 262 did ever operate or flew in Italy, as evidenced in the postings of this thread and by the results of many years of researches.

The personal experience acquired through all this time, taught me to be extremely vary of "eyewitnesses" which claimed sightings of all kinds, most of those with hindsight reached through informations and inputs often gained only after the war, a sort of "layered" memory.

Even ANR pilots themselves did seem to remember "Me 262s" which in all cases proved to be either one of the three Ar 234s briefly based in Campoformido since late February 1945.

As already said, the only two airfields used by the Ar 234 (or by jets) were Lonate Pozzolo and Campoformido (not to mention a short stay in Osoppo of one Arado which required RATO rockets assistance to take-off) and each of their flights was duly reported, and also, due to the the very tiny quantities allotted of their special fuel, those were carefully placed only in the bases they used, and Orio al Serio wasn't among the recipients.

Last but not least, due to the very classified knowledge and use of the German jets, their movements were duly tracked and reported on documents both by the Germans and by their enemy, the Allies. The absence of any trace of such presence is a further evidence, IMHO.