Soviet Air force - Page 2 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

kurlannaiskos · #11 30th January 2008, 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

You need to look in special forums (modelers, flight Sim skinners e.t.c.).

But colours are amazing.
For example this La-5:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...cd/index.3.jpg
is painted from this:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachmen...5&d=1200633375

But it is POSTWAR PAINTED aircraft. Colours were discussed, it is FULL new, NON WW II time colours (mix of green and blue for upper-surface)

anything having to do with a video game is entertainment and is not historical research.
as a model builder myself I would be interested in anything you have to making more accurate models of VVS aircraft of this period.
that profile was done by Chris Banyai-Riepl , not Erik Pilawskii
of course it has incorrect colors, most of the colors used during the GPW disappeared shortly after it ended.
you will note the photo credit listed with the profile states a photograph that was taken in 1945.
Mr Pilawskii knows full well that this aircraft was not green (in fact gray)and has been trying to tell people that for years, they are the ones who are not listening.
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/L...2345/index.php

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeniy Velichko

This La-5:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...cd/index.2.jpg
Correct colours (skin of Il-2:F.B. flight Sim, painted by VVS color researcher "Bomber"):
http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.ph...6&d=1164379183

again, a profile by Mr. Reipl, not Mr. Pilawskii
it might even be as you say , but how do you prove it?
do you think this aircraft was painted in green and brown?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeniy Velichko

Sources of my friends are real WWII documents, photos of parts of founded (not post-war over-painted) aircrafts, real WW II orders, reports of tests... Many.

Yes , it is exactly these sources and factual information that I am after.
please be specific , let's get down to the details.
as for wrecked aircraft - what has the environment done to the paint on these aircraft after 60+ years? I hope no one expects them to look as if they just rolled off the factory floor.

kurlannaiskos · #12 31st January 2008, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot

...the the list of the Soviet industrial chart with the today standards of the W.W.II colors [they are still producing]. Also I have seen some Soviet colors and I have one in my collection. This is dark blue gray top side color for the fighter airplanes. This color is dark blue gray, not medium dark green blue as I have seen on his profiles and descriptions.

Srecko,
are you trying to tell me that the C.I.S. is still producing World War Two colors?
what on Earth would they want to do that for? the needs of a modern jet-powered air force are vastly dis-similar to the propeller-driven aircraft of the past.
what about this paint chip in your collection?
has it been chemically tested for solvent base and pigment?
what paint family does it match?
was it a primer or a finish coat?
where has this paint been for 60 years? and what conditions were it under?
heat,humidity, salinity etc...? underground? underwater?

Pilot · #13 31st January 2008, 22:32

Kurlannaiskos

Quote:

are you trying to tell me that the C.I.S. is still producing World War Two colors?
what on Earth would they want to do that for? the needs of a modern jet-powered air force are vastly dis-similar to the propeller-driven aircraft of the past.

I don't tell you I just have info from some very good sources. And and and and... in the UK is still manufactured the same colors as they are established in the early '30. Today for excample Sky is used today in furniture manufacturing too. So what is problem if this colors are made later in Soviet Union [I mean on WW2 colors]. I have somewhere chart with conversion of the WW2 paints into the modern industrial Soviet chart.

Sample I have is taken after 50 years, exctracted from the leading edge of the elevon. Place was all time in the shadow and away from the any actuator so keep safe from grease. This is final top coat. I have few color images of one other Soviet fighter in preservation with visible topcoat colors and they also also very close to sample I have. I never heard dark dark blue grey was used as primer. There was light blue in this place among the other paints. Sample I have never was under ground, under water... Maybe in some future will make some work in this field.

It is not my intention to talk and analyze anybodys work but just state that at quick view things are not match.

Cheers

Evgeny Velichko · #14 1st February 2008, 00:46

Ok, I see. I hope telling the facts to You is not the same thing as trying prove somewhat to Pilawski = it is easier to bite the moon

I want polite and gentle discussion.

Ok. Just a simply reply.
Pilawski is an "author" of so called "acid VVS colors". And color profiles You mentioned are based on his "colors".

To imagine the "level" of knowledge (and the depth of researching the object) of "GURU", we can look here just 2 simple examples:

Quote:

Il-2 AM-38F "White 25" Unit, Location and Pilot unknown.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/DigitalMod...06/june06.html

This is Il-2 AM38F, from 16 VA, in propaganda flight over Berlin, April 1945. Several photos were taken, all shown in links below. To make more “moral effect”, photograph just simply “edited” one of photo “for newspaper”, adding white arrow and furious “Mstitel” (Avenger).
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000d1hd
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000c914
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000brzs
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000asat

Result: http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000f64p

Il-2’s, presented on that photos, are painted in standard NKAP-43 scheme. It just cannot be in “two colored” scheme (as Erik claim) because average life of Il-2 was short, even it was not shot up or damaged. Just because of wooden details were damaged by water/sunlight. Il-2 “two-colored”, built in late1942 to mid 1943 could not survive so long life. Easy.

Elements of NKAP-43 are seen on right wing of this Il-2 from 16 VA:
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000edk8

Twotone scheme was AMT 4 and AMT 6, but not AII lacquers (used before 1941). There were no Braun color in VVS.

Quote:

Il-2 AM-38F 566 ShAP Summer 1944 Leningrad Font pilot unknown

Franek Grabowski · #15 1st February 2008, 00:47

Well, he is not willing to accept that Soviets used silver colour both for markings and codes, but still following the old myth of yellow star edges.

kurlannaiskos · #16 1st February 2008, 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilot

I have somewhere chart with conversion of the WWII paints into the modern industrial Soviet chart.

I have few color images of one other Soviet fighter in preservation with visible topcoat colors and they also also very close to sample I have. I never heard dark dark blue grey was used as primer. There was light blue in this place among the other paints. Sample I have never was under ground, under water... Maybe in some future will make some work in this field.

I would be very interested in this chart you mention.
(I wonder if this chart was used by the makers of AKAN enamels.(model paint)
what preserved fighter is that? I'm always interested in seeing Soviet aircraft of this period preserved for future generations.
let us hope a proper scientific examination of this paint sample is made.

Pilot · #17 1st February 2008, 08:54

Quote:

(I wonder if this chart was used by the makers of AKAN enamels.(model paint)

No- it is not. I have even noted this material as well info about this to some manufacturers and result is that they discard all corespodence with me. Thats what happen when you have friendly intenetion to help somebody. After that I don't try to help anybody, I am not messiah.

Massimo Tessitori · #18 27th February 2009, 08:38

Hi all,

This is a very interesting discussion. I would have a lot to say, but perhaps it's better that some unpleasant things are forgotten.

Quote:

This is Il-2 AM38F, from 16 VA, in propaganda flight over Berlin, April 1945. Several photos were taken, all shown in links below. To make more “moral effect”, photograph just simply “edited” one of photo “for newspaper”, adding white arrow and furious “Mstitel” (Avenger).
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000d1hd
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000c914
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000brzs
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000asat

Result: http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000f64p

I have looked at these photos with attention.
The thing that astonish me is that the plane with writing is photographed much more clearly than the planes aside, in much better light and focus.
In my idea, it's the photo of a real plane, but taken separately and glued on the original image of planes over Berlin.

Massimo

DiegoZampini · #19 9th March 2009, 06:29

Hi, all (specially to Yevgeny Belichko and Massimo)

I'm "the new guy of the block", so (in spite reading some literature about aerial warfare in WW2 in the Eastern front), I ask you some patience till get at tone with you, guys, that evidently knows a lot about the topic.
In another thread in this forum I saw an interesting attempt to determine how many actual kills out of a certain amount of claims actually scored some German aces (together with the subsequent percentages, and which method was used to determine the actual tally).
I would like (if you're not against) to make a similar analysis regarding some Soviet aces, and the one I'm more interested is no other than the great tactician Aleksandr Pokryskin. After reading an excellent translation of his book "Небо Войны" (The Sky of War") from Russian to Spanish, and beginning to read "Познав себя в бою" in Russian (something like "Knowing himself in combat") I'm delighted with the plain and honest style of writing of Pokryshkin. For his description of the aerial combats he was involved, in most of the cases it seems clear that he is absolutely certain about many (if not all) of his victories. But I would like to see how many of his claims match actual German losses.
I'm specially interested in his claims made during the Battle of Kuban, and in the air battle over Bolshoy Tokmak on 21 September 1943, when he claimed to shot down three Ju.88s (two were credited, the third was apparently downed by the explosion of the first bomber downed by Pokryshkin) and a fourth was apparently flamed by Grigoriy Rechkalov. Anybody knows which were the actual losses suffered by the Luftwaffe on that date?
Thank you very much in advance. If this post is more correctly placed in another thread, please tell me in which.
Kind regards,
Diego Zampini

Dénes Bernád · #20 10th March 2009, 14:49

This latter query would deserve it's own separate thread.

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