Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi

Wim, I think you are positively wrong in your assumption.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Foute Man]

Originally Posted by FalkeEins

Andy phrased it much better than I could have. A good example is Ofw. Rudi Zwesken who led 6./JG300 during early 1945, although not appointed StaKa. Gruppenführer was an SS rank - I don't believe it was used in the Luftwaffe - a JG 300 'Gruppenführer' - ie who led the Gruppe in the air - insisted all such references be removed from the JG 300 book. Better term is Verbandsführer..

Here's a list of SS ranks from the Dutch Wikipedia version, a Gruppenführer was indeed a high SS officer (luitenant-generaal): Hope you're able to translate the Dutch terms:

some terms: eerste = first, tweede = second

• SS-Mann, SS-Schutze - soldaat.
• SS-Oberschütze - soldaat tweede klasse.
• SS-Sturmmann - soldaat eerste klasse.
• SS-Rottenführer - korporaal.
• SS-Unterscharführer - sergeant.
• SS-Scharführer - 1e sergeant.
• SS-Oberscharführer - staf-sergeant .
• SS-Hauptscharführer - technische sergeant.
• SS-Sturmscharführer - sergeant-majoor.
• SS-Untersturmführer - tweede luitenant.
• SS-Obersturmführer - eerste luitenant.
• SS-Hauptsturmführer - kapitein.
• SS-Sturmbannführer - majoor.
• SS-Obersturmbannführer - luitenant-kolonel.
• SS-Standartenführer - kolonel.
• SS-Oberführer - brigadegeneraal.
• SS-Brigadeführer - generaal-majoor.
• SS-Gruppenführer - luitenant-generaal (1 ster).
• SS-Obergruppenführer - generaal (2 sterren).
• SS-Oberstgruppenführer - generaal (3 sterren).
• SS-Reichsführer - maarschalk.

[John Vasco]

Foute Man,
I did correct my use of the term 'Gruppenführer' in post 9 of this thread.

Wim,
I agree with Andreas on his comment on your post.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Guys

Without making the water more muddy than necessary I believe we have to differentiate between
a) Verbands Stellvertreter
b) Verbands Führer

The way I have understood it

a) was the individual who took over the Staffel/Gruppe/Geschwader leaders role, when ,for some reason, nobody had officially been appointed to this position, while
b) was the individual appointed to lead the unit in the air

I also believe that b was very much up to the intelligence and integrity of a OR the true appointed Kapitän, Kommodore etc. Not really sure what the upper Luftwaffe echolons stated in the matter. Perhaps all this was more or less silent agreement?

Cheers
Stig

[John Vasco]

Stig,

a) was the individual who took over the Staffel/Gruppe/Geschwader leaders role, when ,for some reason, nobody had officially been appointed to this position,
This is 'Stellvertreter', as I outlined in an earlier post with regard to Erprobungsgruppe 210 during the Battle of Britain. I thought I had made it clear enough (via info from Wolfgang Schenck).


b) was the individual appointed to lead the unit in the air
This was 'Staffelführer, as I outlined in an earlier post with regard to Erprobungsgruppe 210 during the Battle of Britain. I thought I had made it clear enough (via info from Wolfgang Schenck).

Or maybe Oberstleutnant Schenck, who flew in the Polish campaign and then in every single theatre of the rest of the war, ending the war as Inspector of Jet Fighters, got it wrong with what he told me. Somehow, I just don't think he did.

[Stig Jarlevik]

John

No need to go to war over the issue
Obviously there were enough responses to yours and others on the topic which made the situation a bit unclear, so I just put down my thoughts.

What is also rather obvious is that we in the end are saying pretty much the same thing...

Cheers
Stig

[John Vasco]

I'm not going to war with you over the issue. I'm just pointing out that I had explained all in an earlier post. I'm sure you have grasped it. If others haven't, then I don't know what else you and I can say.

[O.Menu]

Note that you could have as many Staffelfuhrers as you have missions for the day.
As well if the Staffelfuhrer need to abort the mission, for example cause of engine problem, then another member from the staffel will take the lead and become the new Staffelfuhrer.

[Andy Fletcher]

If the person leading the staffel in the air is the Staffelführer and this individual is the most experienced on that particular mission why does the term Staffelführer appear in the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss returns and various unit Offizier Stellenbesetzung which implies that the Staffelführer was at least a semi official position rather than just the leader in the air for a particular mission. Schwarmführer and rottenführer (or kettenführer) don't appear in the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss returns.

Also presumably an experienced leader in the air is required to control the number of aircraft dispatched by the staffel (in the case of fighter and bomber staffeln) so why would a Fernaufklärungs unit, dispatching single aircraft on missions, require a Staffelführer but the term Staffelführer is used in Fernaufklärungs Offizier Stellenbesetzung.

The term stellv.Gr.Kdr. was undoubtedly used for acting Gr.Kdr. (listed in Offizier Stellenbesetzung).

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

why does the term Staffelführer appear in the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss returns ... why would a Fernaufklärungs unit, dispatching single aircraft on missions, require a Staffelführer.

Good point Andy. The II./LG 1 posted the loss of a Staffelführer in January 1945 but the mission was mining the Scheldt Estuary by night, which almost certainly didn't involve flying in any kind of formation or leadership in the air.