Me 262 - 29-10-1944

[Franek Grabowski]

I have checked losses of the day with a friend. It seems the recce Spit is the most likely candidate, and according to some papers, the pilot baled out of the downed aircraft.

[Jaap Woortman]

At Tuesday June 14th, 2005 I will be able to check the original ORB of 411 Sqn and hopefully also the Wing ORB of that period. If it contains any information about this crash of F/O Kinsler I will report it here.
Checking the ORB of no.4 sqn. will be a little bit more difficult because no.4 Sqn. was at October 29th, 1944 stationed at B.70 Deurne in Belgium and went to Gilze-Rijen at November 23rd, 1944.
But we will see what we can do and whom we can contact in Belgium.

Jaap

[Jaap Woortman]

As promised here the information from no.411 Sqn. ORB.

PRO Air 26/186 no.126 Wing. 29.10.44. Sheet 540.

F/L G.B.Mercer again took off a section dive-bombing a rail cutting three miles East of Burgsteinfurt. All the bombs were dropped on a train of ten cars just East od the target. The whole train and the railway went up with much debris about. The railway was well cut, and the train destroyed. Another train standing at Meteten was straffed of which a locomotive and two cars were damaged. F/O F.F.Kinsler (J.35977) di not return from this mission. He was last seen just after dropping his bombs dead on the target. He reported his aircraft on fire and was told to set course for base, it is thought possibly he baled out.



PRO Air 27/1804 no.411 R.C.A.F. sqn. 29-10-1944. Sheet 540.

Weather was suitable for flying and the Squadron did its first operational flying in nearly three weeks. This consisted of bombing trains and rail targets in Germany. Our first casualty A.383. in nearly three months was sustained when the engine of F/O T.F.Kinsler’s kite packed up (probably due to enemy flak). He was instructed tp bale out but confirmation of this being complied with is not available. He is reported as being “Missing-particulars unknown.”
Casualties for October, 1944: J.35977 F/O T/F.Kinsler, Missing on operations on 29.10.44



PRO Air 27/1804 no.411 R.C.A.F. sqn. 29-10-1944. Sheet 541.
PI498 F/O T.F.Kinsler Duty: Dive-Bombing Up: 1215 Down: Missing.
Three 500 and 6 250’s were dropped on a train of 10 cars just east of a rail cutting(original target) east of Burgsteinfurt. The whole train standing in Meteten was strafed. F/O Kinsler did not return from this mission. He was last seen just after dropping his bombs and reporting his a/c was on fire.


Remark from J.W.: In the report of an earlier mission at that day to a target in the same area, a fly-over 1 mile east of Burgsteinfurt, it was mentioned that a Jet Job was seen but was to far to identify. This mission took place between 1115 up and 1215 down.

[robert_schulte]

Originally Posted by Jaap Woortman

Another train standing at Meteten was straffed of which a locomotive and two cars were damaged. .......
The whole train standing in Meteten was strafed.

Meteten is actually Metelen, it is just a few miles from where I live

Robert

[Jaap Woortman]

When we compare the information of ORB 411 Sqn. with the claims of Lt.Schreiber of October 29th, 1944 we can come to the conclusion that it was not the Spitfire of F/O T.F.Kinsler which was rammed by the Me 262 of Lt.Schreiber. There is gap of 3 hours between the crash of Kinsler and the claim of Schreiber.

Claims of Lt.Schreiber mentioned in Tony Woods claimlist:
29. October 1944

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lw.Kdo. West:

29.10.44 Ltn. Alfred Schreiber 1./Kdo. Nowotny P-38 £ HS at 9.000 m. [Herford] 12.00 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

29.10.44 Ltn. Alfred Schreiber 1./Kdo. Nowotny Spitfire GO at 9.500 m. [Bramsche-Hopsten] time 15.25-40 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

[Henk Welting]

Hello Friends,
Thanks for all your info and suggestions. As Franek said the Spitfire pilot baled out; the exact crash location of Wilkins aircraft still has not been confirmed being N of Tilburg; Me262 most times flying at high altitude; Wilkins being on a high level reconnaissance; PR-Spits having large wing surface and could glide quite well - this all seems most likely that it was Wilkins who (accidentally ?) was strafed by Schreiber's Me262.
Regards,
Henk.

[Jaap Woortman]

Dear Henk,

Ho. ho, don't panic. We are still working on it!
It seems very likeble that it was Wilkins but the time distance between a claim at 15.15-15.40 hrs and a crashlanding at 17.00 hrs is a little bit to much.
We now know from the ORB of no.4 Sqn. that after 14.10 hrs. no planes for high-alt. recces left B.70. The starting time of Wilkins is not known yet.
Several members of the Study Group Airwar 1939-1945 living in the area between Gorichem and Tilburg are now working on this case.
We will crack this nut!!!
I will let you know here at 12 O'Clock High or in our Bulletin in a story about all Me 262 crashes in the Netherlands mentioned in the literature or most probably in both places.

Jaap

[Richard T. Eger]

Dear Fellow Researchers,

Nice bit of investigation by all. Certainly one of the better threads of late.

Regards,
Richard

[Henk Welting]

Hello Jaap,
Could you give me the exact location of the Me262 SW of Tubbergen. Between Wesselink's farm and the nowadays ring road? Do you know the streetname where Wesselink's farm was located?
Regards,
Henk.

[Jaap Woortman]

Dear friends,


In Henk’s question about the Me 262 at 29-10-1944 he also has mentioned that the Me 262 crashed at German territory. Yesterday I have received the proof that the Me 262 of Lt. Schreiber has crashed at the South-West edge of the village of Tubbergen in the Netherlands. The information was found in the diary of the Airraid Protection Service in the village of Tubbergen. Interesting is also that at the sheet is suggested that Schreiber has landed at Zollamt Mander. Mander is a village in the Netherlands 6 km North-East of Tubbergen.

At the sheet the Werkenummer of the plane is not mentioned, but we kow that Schreiber was on his second flight that day when he had to jump out of his aircraft.

Also is mentioned at the sheet, that the time of the report of the crash was 17.00 hrs. This does not mean that the crash has taken place at 17.00 hrs.

I hope that the above mentioned information can be used by Dan O’Connell in his work about the Me 262.

The tough nut has still to be cracked. We have almost found the evidence of the time and place of the crashlanding of F/l. D.C.Wilkins but it is still too early to publish it.



Jaap