Americans in the RAF in 1940

[Bill Walker]

Hi Alex;

The Clayton Knight Committee used a number of ways to get around the American neutrality laws, including faking citizenship and travel papers. That is part of the reason a lot of the Americans in the RAF and RCAF show up as Canadians in the records. They had the backing of some senior elements within the US government, and managed to stay one small step ahead of the rest of the US government, most of the time. Think Iran-Contra, 1930s style. It was a little cloak-and-dagger at times.

Even the Clayton Knight rejects were told how to enter Canada as a tourist, and what to say when they signed up (wink wink, nudge nudge).

You are probably right, a lot could have still been in Canada by 1940. The original post just said "On another forum, an American has asserted that there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940." There were several RAF Schools and Manning Depots in Canada by then. Remember, Clayton Knight hand picked experienced people, and almost all went straight to being staff pilots, instructors,administrators or ground crew at units in Canada and the UK, not as students. Some later volunteered for active duty, and would have then undergone further training. Also, RAF records of the time didn't always distinguish between RAF and RCAF units. This was just fine with the Canadians at the time, by the way. To put in it perspective, remember that Canadian citizens (real or otherwise) traveled with UK passports until after the War.

We also need to remember that by 1940 the RAF was a big organization, and 10,000 or so people spread across it wouldn't have really stood out at the time. Another historical tidbit to put that in perspective: in September 1939 there were more Canadians with RAF commissions on active flying service in the RAF then there were officers in the entire RCAF, including the Auxiliary Squadrons.

[Smithy]

The assertion that 10,000 Americans were in the RAF during the BoB period or 1940 is erroneous. I have heard this before and I believe it is a "chinese whispers" evolution of the complete amount of Americans who served in the RCAF in WWII (which if memory serves was 8,500 or so - sorry away from my books at the moment).

[Bill Walker]

I really hope someone can come up with a more definitive number, for any time period.

From Wikipedia (a dangerous source, I admit) Clayton Knight recruited a total of 8000+ Americans, for RAF and RCAF.

A quote from the RAF Museum web page about Americans in the RAF:

"The Americans who joined the RAF via Charles Sweeney or through the Clayton Knight Committee were the minority. Many more joined alone, usually by travelling to Canada and pretending to be Canadian."

see http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/online-e...-1914-1945.cfm

Another quote, from the Nanton Museum web site:

"On 7 December 1941, American aircrew serving in the RCAF totaled 6,129, with just over half, 3,886 under training [BCATP] in Canada. All Americans were given the opportunity to return to the US, and 3,797 requested transfer back to their own national forces. A special train left Washington stopping at every RCAF training base, and 1,759 Americans boarded the train. In total 5,263 Americans completed their service in the RCAF. From 1939-45 a total of 8,864 Americans served in the RCAF, and 704 were killed in training or combat."

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/s,claytonknight.html

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Alex Smart

Hello Bill,
But all these men or women would not be in an operational status as flying crew, ground crew etc etc in the UK during the BoB or before. They would surely still be in Canada undergoing training and such. Only a very few that had for one reason or other joined the RAF from before 1939/40 would be in that situation ?
And
From "American Eagles" by Tony Holmes.
"To enlist in a forign countries military was illegal from 1939. It was also unlawful to use a US passport to secure passage to a foreign country for the purposes of enlistment."
Maybe this is why at the later time (mentioned in an earlier post) some were stripped of their US citizenship and others were not due to the time they enlisted.

John, how about a link ?

All for now
Alex

Alex,

Here's the link: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/back...orn-usa-4.html That should come up with page 4 of the thread. Post 107 onwards. The guy who asserted there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940 is 'coldsteal2'. It's a guitar forum, but with a 'Backstage' area where any topic can be discussed.

I think what Smithy says above is closer to the truth, and coldsteal2 is getting confused between the 1940 period alone, and the whole war, as are some members here...

Dear John,

I consulted Floyd Williston who researched the history of 135 RCAF veterans who flew in the Battle of Britain. There may have been a large number of Americans in the RCAF and possibly RAF, but according to Floyd, "It is statistically impossible for there to have been 10,000 in the RAF alone and in 1940."

I am only familiar with Americans in the RCAF, who later flew as RCAF personnel attached to RAF units. Bill Walker provides many excellent points regarding the Clayton Knight Committee and the large number of Americans who enlisted in the RCAF at this early time period. Though many were in the RCAF, not all transfered to the USAAF. I have been told some Americans felt insulted by treatment shown by the USAAF, they returned to the USA, but chose to fly with the USN or USMC.

Someone in the UK should research WWII RAF records to determine the number of Americans who enlisted in the RAF yearly from the late 1930s onwards. I doubt if this number will reach the proportions achieved in the RCAF.

Norman Malayney

[John Vasco]

Thanks, Norman, for the above post.

[BlenheimBuff]

Hello Bill,

Very interesting information regarding the Clayton Knight Committee, I wasn't personally aware of this at all, and as I am currently researching for a book project on this precise period it will provide a valuable new direction for my research.

It's a pity Mr Vasco doesn't appear to appreciate your assistance, or treat other forum members with much common courtesy either come to that. I applaud your self restraint though.

Thanks again.

Regards,

Ian

[Smithy]

According to Fydenchuk in "Immigrants of War", 750 Americans served in the RAF throughout WWII. This figure (to my eyes at least) seems to be realistic.


So all up, that would make roughly for a figure of 10,000 Americans who served in the RAF and RCAF throughout the duration of the war.

[Tango Echo Dog]

John
The idea that there were 10,000 Americans in the RAF in 1940 is bull's hit.
Less than a dozen American pilots participated in the Battle of Britain and 244 served in the Eagle squadrons which began to appear at the very end of this battle.
In 1940 the RAF wanted pilots rather than ground-crew, pen-pushers etc and they could get these from the pre-war regulars augmented by the first conscripts. The RAF was obsessed with pilots who, in multi-engined aircraft, were expected to fly, navigate, command and watch out for Kryptonite.
Even with the limited statistical information above it is clear that in 1940 there were no more than 100 Americans in the RAF and that is probably pushing it, although in August 1918 a surprisingly high number of RAF aircrew were born under the Star Spangled Banner. Most Americans wanting to join up in World War Two would indeed join the RCAF but by Pearl Harbor there were only 6,700 Americans in that organisation.
Regards
Tango Echo Dog