Messerschmitt 110 loss - May 1940, Sercus, France

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Marcel Hogenhuis

As the 1./Erpr.Gr.210 had 3 losses in August 1940 (2 on 11.8.1940 and 1 on 15.8.1940), it is likely that these losses had the Werkenummer of the first batch of six Bf110 C-6's.

Marcel,

Not necessarily so. Please note the following also:

29/7/40 Bf 110 C-6 2N+RH Returned to base damaged following combat.
Lt. Erich Beudel (P) & Ogefr Heinrich Diemer (Bf).

30/7/40 Bf 110 C-6 Shot down into the North Sea by Allard and Hamilton of 85 Sqdn.
Lt. Hans Herold (P) & Ogefr. Lotar Lilienthal (Bf).

So, if you add these two to the three in August, and also the two from 5./SKG 210 and 8./ZG 26, you will see that it makes more than 6.

Erich Beudel's flugbuch records that he flew the following Bf 110s with 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 in July 1940: 'G', 'N', 'O', 'P', 'R', 'S', & 'T'. All C-6s. I therefore believe they had on charge more than 6 in July 1940.

I also believe the Bf 110 C-6s shown on charge with other units later in the war (apart from SKG 210 & ZG 1) were damaged machines of Erpr. Gr. 210 that went through the usual repair facility and were re-issued to other units. According to Petrick/Mankau, all 12 C-6s were built and issued by July 1940.

Hope this helps.

John V.

[John Vasco]

Marcel,

Looking at the five 'fate unknown' C-6s in your last post, I think it is safe to assume that four of them were lost by Erprobungsgruppe 210 between 29th July 1940 and 15th August 1940, i.e. one on 30th July; two on 11th August, and one on 15th August.

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello John,

Thank you for your most intruiging and welcome remarks ! The trouble - certainly known to you - is that the Gen.Qm. Abt.6 loss lists for the period up to August/September 1940 are barely readable or do not contain Werkenummer (or both). So I was very pleased when I was able to buy your book 'Zerstörer' some years ago and I did add then a lot of info into my Bf 110 database.

I will carefully compare your comments with what I have written in order to let the dust of all those facts fall down. It will narrow down the number of possible C-6 Werkenummer left for later use in 'my' I./NJG 1 !

Always enjoying your detailed knowledge about these matters, all the best,

Marcel Hogenhuis

[Andy Saunders]

Just reviving this thread, together with photos, in the hope that somebody else might yet have some input on a possible identification of this Battle of France loss. (W.Nr 2889)

[Larry Hickey]

Andy,

How timely is your note above reviving this issue. Yesterday I acquired the photo collection, some medals and the FB of a 1./ZG52 Bf110 BF, Fw Herbert Altmann, who flew with the unit during the Phoney War and Western Campaign. In the FB, Altmann records initially flying a Bf110, W.Nr. 2889, coded A2+LH, on March 22, 1940. There are subsequent entries with that plane code, and pilot's names are recorded.

Has the identification of the crash of this Bf110 advanced since this post was initially made? You mention photos in your recent post, but I didn't see any with the entry. I don't yet have the FB in hand, only scans from some pages, but I should soon have the full FB and be able to provide more info if it would be helpful. Altmann would not have been a crewman at the time of the crash, as I believe that he survived the campaign, but, if still relevant, this should significantly advance the search for the identity of this aircraft.

I also haven't had time to search for a 1./ZG52 crash during the period that you're looking at, but I'm pretty sure you will ID the crash under that unit.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Since posting the above, I've looked over the EoE Luft loss DB (100% losses to Stab I, I or 1./ZG52 listed below), but didn't find any 1 Staffel losses that are dead on. Item #1 isn't a possibility. I've included two Stab. I./ZG52 losses (items #2 and #4), whose crews could have been flying a 1 Staffel a/c on loan if needed. However, neither of these appear to fit. The best bet is Item #3, but, unfortunately the crew is not identified, nor was either of them killed. Identified only as belonging to I./ZG52. The date is only one day off the date you were considering most likely. I think that this is probably your aircraft. Please note that these entries have been revised since the publication of Peter Cornwell's "The Battle of France: Then and Now."

1) "May 14, 1940: 1./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Starboard engine badly damaged in attacks by Sgt Bouhy of GC II/5 during escort sortie south of Thionville 4.00 p.m. Retired north and abandoned over the ‘Bricherknapp’ near Brouch, in Luxembourg. FF Fw Otto Weckbach baled out badly wounded – admitted to hospital where died May 16, BF Uffz Karl Klaus missing. Aircraft 100% write-off."

A restored engine from this a/c is in a museum in Luxembourg, and the crash site isn't anywhere near Sercus, France.

2) "May 27, 1940: Stab I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais 7.20 p.m. FF Lt Christian-Friedrich von Neumann (Gruppenadjutant) killed, BF Uffz Hermann Laudemann baled out and captured wounded - admitted to hospital in Dunkirk and later released. Aircraft 100% write-off."

If the location is correct, this would have gone down into the channel. The Bf110 is unlikely to have crashed inland as far as Sercus, which is about 40 kms SE of Calais.

3) "May 27, 1940: I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais and abandoned over German-held territory 7.20 p.m. Crew baled out unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off."

Although both crewmen reportedly bailed out unhurt, I think that this is your aircraft. Perhaps one of the crewmen lost a boot in the a/c as he bailed out. So this should be A2+LH, WNr. 2889 of 1./ZG52.

4) "June 4, 1940: Stab I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Crashed at Maizey both engines destroyed in attacks by Lt Huvet, Lt Hebrard, and Sgt Hème of GC II/5 north of Saint-Mihiel 8.10 a.m. FF Oberlt Herbert Ziebarth (Gruppenadjutant) baled out and captured unhurt – later released, BF Uffz Johann Sisterhenn killed. Aircraft 100% write-off."

This isn't anywhere near Sercus, France.

So, over to you for your thoughts.

Regards,

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Based upon the info presented above, Peter Cornwell has revised our EoE Luft loss DB as follows:

"May 27, 1940: 27 May 1940: I./ZG52 Messerschmitt Bf110C. Shot down in combat with fighters of Nos. 56, 145, 601, and 610 Squadrons north-east of Calais and abandoned over German-held territory 7.20 p.m. Crew baled out unhurt. Aircraft 100% write-off.Add : Possibly the aircraft excavated at Sercus, south-west of Hazebrouck. Werk Nummer ‘2889’ found on wreckage identifying it as on the strength of 1./ZG52 in March 1940 when coded A2+LH."

1) Does anyone have contemporary photos of this crash site at Sercus, France?
2) Can anyone provide further details of the excavation of this crash site "a couple of years ago," including precisely when this site was excavated, who or what organization did it, what they specifically recovered from the site, and where these artifacts are currently displayed or stored? Can anyone provide photos of the excavation and the recovered artifacts?

Regards,

[Andy Saunders]

Larry

I will look up details of the excavation date etc and come back to you. I was present at the 'dig' and can send you details. I can certainly let you have photos of the recovery and artefacts etc.

Several points I would add. I discussed the following with Peter Cornwell earlier today:

We know the W.Nr was 2889.

I am convinced that one crew member died. This was stated by a local witness and the flying boot was corroboration of this in my view.

The same witness stated one man baled out and was captured.

The witness stated it was just before the Germans came through on the ground, and this enabled the farmer to gather up all of the surface wreckage and dump it in his pond - where we later found it. This probably would not have happened if the Germans were already occupying the area.

Clear evidence existed on wing internal structure of a major AA fire hit of quite heavy-ish calibre of 40mm or more, I'd say. The cause of downing could have been this alone, or at least contributory.

A key date is to establish when, exactly, the Germans took that territory and look at 110 losses prior to that date.

[Larry Hickey]

Andy,

Thanx for the response. I've contributed what I can for now, so I'll have to leave it up to you and Peter to make the pieces all fit together. Please do send me photos and info on the recovery for the EoE Photo DB.

Regards,

[Andy Saunders]

Images here of the recovered tail unit. This had been dumped in a farmer's pond.

If you look in the background on image three you can see the piece of wing structure. On the right the heavy ordnance hits are visible.

I may have imagined this, but I think I recall a piece of wing-tip that we thought had been painted white.