Photoes form Stalingrad, febr. 1943

[yogybär]

Originally Posted by Larry deZeng

Thanks, Evgeny. I did not know Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine and Georgia had NAZI governments. I guess we are getting distorted news here.

L.

I think, most of us (including people from US, EU and RU) get "streamlined news" at least about what happens in other countries.

One example: I know one guy from Ukraine quite well. I compared his analysis of the political situation there to what the "critical, free" german media try to tell me. Then, I got the impression that all infos I get from german media is filtered in the german/EU/NATO government department for propaganda.
PS: These departments do not exist (officially).

Coming back to the pictures: They really give a strong impression of what war really is. We should never forget that.

[RT]

Hello Kutscha,

I wonder if anybody under the rule of the soviets lived so nicely ??
For Yogybär nd Evgeny, no doubt that during the era Eltsine, many people try to steal a piece of Russia, now seems Russia recovered , nd is respected , for Estonia , Latvia... the better for them is to hv good relations with Russia, the real ennemy is on the other side now

Remi

[Evgeny Velichko]

THX all for answer.

Also some photoes of Stalingrad - before and after Battle.

http://battle.volgadmin.ru/osn.asp?np=2&npp=0
http://www.stalingrad.h15.ru/arhive/photos/index.htm

And now this:
http://translate.google.ru/translate...C17CD587&twu=1

Originally Posted by Kutscha

It is understandable with Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia as they were not so nicely occupied by the Soviets.

And in 41-44 they were not so nicely occupied by Nazis. Do You think that nazies and their new "volonteers" killed less people then soviets?

14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische Nr. 1)
15. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr. 1)
19.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.2)
20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1)

And now, veterans of those regiments are officially haled by goverments. And "red" veterans are treated.

Note:
Nobody hail veterans of:

28.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division Wallonien
33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS „Charlemagne“ (französische Nr. 1)
23.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier-Division „Nederland“ (niederländische Nr.1)'
5. SS-Panzer-Division „Wiking“

Or others?

I will tell You:
Removing the "Bronze Soldier" in Tallin, exploding War Memorial in Kutaisi is like... I dont know... What is the main memorial of all who fought against Nazis in Your country? Monument of all fallen? The SACRED place...

And sacred places are raped now...

(This thread is good to move in OffTop folder IMHO)

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Yes, its sad, but ex-SS veterans are national heroes there, and those who fought nazis are not pleased by own goverments. It is sad, but thruth.

I think what we may be seeing, Evgeny, are relatively small groups of extreme, far-right nationalists. We see these today in Germany as well, and also in my country. If allowed to grow unchecked, they can become a real threat to democracy. Fortunately, they seem to be under control for now and the governments of at least 3 of the 4 countries mentioned must still be considered representative democracies today. But these movements do merit watching.

As you noted in a later post, we have strayed off-topic and we should return to the main subject of the thread now.

L

[Kari Lumppio]

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

...
20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1)

And now, veterans of those regiments are officially haled by goverments. And "red" veterans are treated.

Dear Evgeny,

"Officially haled"?? THE main complaint of those Estonians who fought against the Soviets is that Estonian government does not officially "hale" (hail?) - as You put it - them. I simply can not agree Your view that fighting against Soviets and Sovietization makes one nazi or even pro-nazi. Please keep these things separated. In Estonia veterans who served in Soviet, German or Finnish armed forces all receive the same benefits. I don't understand what you mean by "red veterans are treated". If you are referring to Arnold Meri please be aware that he partizipated in forced deportation of Estonians to Siberia. That he was HSU does not change that shameful fact.

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

Removing the "Bronze Soldier" in Tallin

Not removed. It was relocated to a military cemetery. That is perfectly logical place for a monument for the fallen soldiers, don't you think?


Regards,
Kari

[Nokose]

Evgeny, You mentioned that explosive ordinance is still being found there. About how much still comes up and has anyone been hurt over the years from it? I remember reading back in the 1990's about a British mortar shell from the 1700's being recovered in Pensacola, Florida (U.S.) with the gunpowder still preserved (it was Spanish Florida at the time). War seems to have no time limit on it's means of killing.

[Rémi Baudru]

The red cross archives tell us an other tragic number : less than 6000 of the 91000 germans soldiers who surrendered to the soviet army at the end of this battle, came back in Germany....

[Evgeny Velichko]

Remi - I am very sad about many german prosoners of war, who died in Siberia.

But I am much very sad about another number, wich "Red Cross" will not give You - 1.500.000 soviet prisoners of war, who were shot/murdered/died from illnesses and hunger in socalled prosinerscamps ONLY IN 1941. Dont forget - there was 1942 "sacks"... How many from those millions returned from captivity? And what about civilians (sometimes whole famalies), who were removed to Germany to work on factoryes/farms e.t.c.? What about thouthands of children, wich blood (all blood) was taken to wounded german soldiers?

Not removed. It was relocated to a military cemetery. That is perfectly logical place for a monument for the fallen soldiers, don't you think?

1. Its sacrilege.
2. Its the POLITICAL MOVE.

Medal "Gratitude of Estonian people." for Harald Nugiseks - isnt it a hailing?

About A.Meri:

In the fight against the armed nationalist underground in March 1949, the Soviet authorities had carried out mass deportations, in which a remote areas of the USSR in the settlement was sent to approximately 20,5 thousand people. This rather rigid operation undermined the social base of the "forest brothers" and contributed to the demise of full-scale terror against the Estonians who supported the Soviet goverment.
In contrast to the period 1941 - 1944 period, mortality prisoners of the Gulag and was specially resettled in low.
After serving the majority opinion convicted in the 1944-1953 years of Estonians were safely released.
Thus, the repression 1944-1953 period affected nearly 5-6% of the population in Estonia, most of repressed subsequently returned safely to home.

Deportated were famalies of "forest brothers", and many who supported them. Dont forget that "forest brothers" killed and roberred much more ESTIONIAN people then "russian/soviet". That is crime, and crime must be punished. Easy.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Nokose - German SC500 was founded in 200 metres from my house 3 years ago. Still charged.

[Evgeny Velichko]

I simply can not agree Your view that fighting against Soviets and Sovietization makes one nazi or even pro-nazi.

Mate, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE between "to fight together with Wermach against Soviets" (like Finnland) and "to fight as Wermach/SS against Soviets" (as lithuanians/latvians/estonians did).

Soldiers of Finnland didnt swear the military oath to Hitler, and there were no Small Finnland flag under the large Nazi flag in Helsinki.

Estonian volonters (note - not all estonians, because many of them fought together with Russians against germans and liberated their own Tallin) sweared the oath to Hitler.

And there was a Nazi flag over the small Estonian flag on "Tall German" tower in Tallin.