Pls help with german manual, Soviet a/c silhouettes, 1941

[RolandF]

These "I-" designitations make more sense after analyzing how the Soviet fighter designations are composed of:

"I-153" e.g. means, in fact, "I-15, 3rd variant", so
"I-180" would mean, in fact "I-18, experimental variant"

...so we´re within the system the Germans were thinking about and what they presumably had heard of. Remember, in the Spanish Civil War the Legion Condor pilots named the I-16 initially as "Curtiss" not knowing the exact Soviet designation.

So we have to compare the profiles of the I-17 and the I-18(0) with the Soviet fighters actually in the air at the very time of the reports just to know what the Luftwaffe pilots really had shot down.

Regards

Roland

[Evgeny Velichko]

THX for answers gents.

Originally Posted by RolandF

First, in German writing "I-17" is the same as "J-17". (The written stroke "J" - like in "JG" e.g. would be longer)

Roland, documents are not handwritten, they are from typo machine, and it is clear that letter is "J", not just long "I".

Originally Posted by RolandF

The Polikarpov I-17 was a prototype with an inline engine from 1934 obviously thought to be operational
http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/pol_i-17.php
obviously significating the early LaGG and MiG fighters
The I-18 might have something to do with the Polikarpov I-180 and I-185 prototypes with radial engines, obviously, and thus would mean mean the La-5 fighters. I am sure the Germans did not know about the LaGG, Jak and MiG designations after 1940 (LaGG-1 starting as I-22, Jak-1 as I-26, MiG-1 as I-61) and the situation in the unfortunate Polikarpov offices.

The "I-" was a producer-independant anonymous USSR designation comparable to the US "P-" designation.

1. Luftwaffe used both designations for И-16: "I-16" as from russian spelling (И - "Истребитель" - "fighter"), and "J-16" as from german translation "Jager-16".

2. As far as I understood, "J-17" (as it was never operational) could be a name for ANY inline-engined VVS fighter, which was not clear identified by german pilot because of combat reasons. So It could be Yak-1, MiG-1/3.

3. "J-18" was sure not a name for I-180 or I-185 (and of course NOT La-5). Reasons - I-180, and especially "uberfighter" I-185, never saw operational and factory series building, and were secret in pre- and early war.

First Eastern front "J-18" claim come already in early morning of 22 june 41, a first claim of Walter Dahl.
First "J-18" claim of SKG210 in my documents, appears on aug. 1941. Then, in large numbers - in late autumn and winter 1941-42. In ZG26 claims it is widely recorded even to may 1942!

Then, in december 1941, Yak-7 appeared on front, and I think that german "J-180" would come to Yak-7.

"I-153" e.g. means, in fact, "I-15, 3rd variant"

Wright, I-15, I-15bis, I-153.

"I-180" would mean, in fact "I-18, experimental variant"

No, You are wrong. I-180, and I-185 were not a variants of each other and were not a variants of "I-18". They were different airplanes.

[RolandF]

Hello Evgeny,

concerning the OFFICIAL designations of the Soviet fighter series, when thex did not name the projecting bureaus, when the "I-" designations ruled the scene, you´re absolutely right. I wanted to point out the FILTERED and uncertain informations about Soviet fighter projects arriving at the RLM in Berlin.

Concerning the letters "I" and "J" in German writing this is a very common mistake when hand-writing is transferred into type-writing, printing or stencilled writing. Look at this script and you´ll know why this happens (btw, the same with Sütterlin) - just remember the PI + PS/PJ + PS mistake concerning a certain Ju290:

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20060501153550

In my view the I-15, I-15bis, I-15ter (= I-153) designations give the scheme the German intelligence was working with. They knew some "I-17" and "I-18" fighters were in development in the USSR and they knew how they looked like approximately.

Regards

Roland

We know Nazi Germany and the USSR were exchanging information and even plane samples (like the He100 or the Do17). I´m quite sure neither Hitler nor Stalin provided full information about their projects.

We might also presume "I-17" was significating a "modern Soviet inline fighter" and "I-18" a "modern Soviet radial fighter" in contrast to the common I-16 and I-15 and I-153 fighters.

The insight of having dealt with MiGs, LaGGs and Yaks came much later, imo. Especially because those design bureaus - some of them offsprings of Polikarpov - had been set up very late. Do you know whether the Germans knew about the existence of Mikoyan, Lavochkin and Yakovlev, btw? It is interesting because the old designations are still used...

[Evgeny Velichko]

Lt. Dahl's first victory, MiG-3 from 23 or 28iap 15sad, was listed in his Abschusslist as "J-18"... So, J-18 is NOT fighter with radial engine, but... inline-engined MiG-3!

I would be happy if an expert, like Dr. Prien, for example, will resolve that mistery...

P.S. In one of SKG210 abschussemeldung there is strange writing: "J-17 (Rata)" !!!
Also, this note followed that document:
"J-17 ist schneller und steigt besser als Bf110 mit A-Motor. Ratas ungefahr gleichwertig."

[Juha]

Hello Evgeni
I-17 was shown in identification pamphlets, have seen it in Finnish material, IIRC it was a inline engined fighter with bulges under inner wings. Probably a mistake by German intelligence or based on a Soviet proto that didn't went into production. And because it was in identification pamphlet there were also claims.

Juha

[Evgeny Velichko]

THX Juha.

Could You post an image of "J-17" from identification pamphlets pls?

[Juha]

Hello Evgeny, I was unable to upload the picture, it is too big, I think. Hurricane like wings, deHavilland like tail, deep, short and narrow radiators under each wing. I'll try to find a link to you, I have seen it also in net.

Juha

[Juha]

Hello Evgeny
tried to send the link to you via private message, but while sending my browser frozen for 40 minutes, in the end I had to shut down my browser. When I opened it again the message, in fact 2 messages, were shown in my sent box, so hopefully you got the link.

Juha

[Evgeny Velichko]

I got it Juha, thx a lot!

So, it must be:

J-15 - I-15, I-15bis
J-153 - I-153
J-16 - I-16
J-17 - fighter with inline engine, in most cases MUST be MiG-1/3
J-18 - MiG-3
J-26 - Yak-1 (but Lufwaffe images above shows directly MiG-3!!!)
J-61 - MiG-1
J-180 - Yak-7
J-301 - LaGG-3

[RolandF]

Maybe one additional info I´ve found in my RLM recognition booklet originating from "Stand Sommer 1942":

Listed for (original writing) "LAGG-3 (Sowjetunion) Jagdeinsitzer
Anmerkung: Ansprache gleichlautend für MIG-1, -3 und JAK-1, die im Erkennungsdienst nicht unterschieden werden"

this means there was made no difference between those three types - at least in summer 1942

Regards

Roland