Unknown B-17

[RSwank]

I must take back my claim that the mystery plane is 42-98019. There is a photo of this plane after it crashed in Belgium (not Holland) on 24 Dec 44 here.

http://www.487thbg.org/Photos/MutzieB.shtml

Although the MACR says the plane flew in the 839th, the picture shows it is painted in the 838th code. It is interesting to note that the plane landed on its own and did not burn even though an engine had exploded and the wing was on fire when the crew bailed out near Ostend.

I still think the code on the mystery plane R5.

[RSwank]

Paul, I think I have figured it out and know what plane is the mystery plane. I need to check a couple of MACRs but I think I can make a good case. Will post my reasoning later.

[paul kroon]

I am nervous to hear from you!
paul

[RSwank]

Paul, We seem to be jumping between forums, so I will post here also.

To figure out what plane is the Mystery Plane we need to review a couple of MACRs.
MACR 10758 43-38141 Shot down 26 Nov 44487th BG, 839th BS According to Roger Freeman's Book, this plane was marked R5-V.
Last seen 5236N 0818E at 1220. Crew of 9 all were POWs and all marked RTD,
The Crew:
Pilot: Davidson, Burr E. 2nd Lt 0394117
CP: Brink, Douglas C. 2nd Lt 0774505
Nav: Blanchard, Willard J. 2nd Lt. 02065938
Bomb: De Nure, Roy R 2nd Lt 0780298
Eng: Becker, Clarence Sgt 39417134
ROG: Millard, Willam Sgt 19100980 (s/b Willard)
BG: McBride, Charles Sgt 37675484
TG: Dory, Joseph W. Sgt. 39918335
WG: Price, Milton O. Sgt 33000932

Here is the description of shoot down from MACR 10758.
"At 1210 Just before target was reached, Lt. Davidson was seen to start falling back. at 1220 the bomb bay doors were seen to be open, but it is believed that no bombs were dropped. Flames were seen in the bomb bay."
"At 1220, 5256N-0818E, Lt Lester's Crew reports observing a B-17 at 22,000 feet, which plane they believed to be our high squadron. The plane under observation made a 180 degree turn, flying level, and three chutes wee seen to come out. The ship was losing altitude and was under observation for five minutes before it went into a dive, losing a wing and disintegrating at 15,000 feet."
In the attached German Documents it states the date of the crash as 26 NOV 44, but the place and time of the crash are unknown. The German documents state the plane was a Fortress (according to the prisoners' statements) and the cause of the crash was antiaircraft defence (again according to the prisoners' statements
The attached list of captured airmen has 14 names (with several typos). These names are:
2nd Lt De Nure, Royal
2nd Lt Brink, Douglas
2nd Lt Finlayson, Dan
Fl Off. Aschendorf, Irving
S/Sgt Price, Milton
S/Sgt Westell, Dale
S/Sgt Bartrum, John
Sgt. Dory, Jos
Sgt. Williard, William
Sgt. Kuerten, Richard
Sgt. Nickalson, Arone
Sgt. McBrait, Varell
Sgt. Maul, Brevmond
Sgt. Becker, Clarens

Some of these names we recognize as the crew of 43-38141, Others we do not. . There are no statements attached from the crew after repatriation. MACR 10758 is only 13 pages long.

The names above are from two different planes. Here is the other plane, listed as MACR 11209. (32 pages)
MACR 11209 A/C: B-17G 44-6491 390th BG 568th BS Crash Date: 26 NOV 44
Last Seen: 5145N 0742E
Crew of 9 All POW and all RTD
Pilot: Meyer, Gilbert A 2nd Lt 0-767602
Co-Pilot: Burkhart, Alfred 2n Lt 0-776228
Navigator: Aschendorf, Irving
Bombardier: Finlayson, Dan W 2nd LT 0-681880
R/O: Westell, Dale T. S/Sgt 37672307
Ball Turret: Maul, Raymond
Tail Gunner: Kuerten, Richard
Top Turret: Bartram, John
LWaist Gunner: Mickelson, Aaron E.
Description of Shoot down of 44-6491 from MACR 11209
A/C #491 was observed hit by flak after bombs away. Fire broke out spreading through the entire bomb bay. A/C pulled to right away from formation, then back to left andout of sight. Several minutes later A/C 491 was seen at approximately 20,000 ft. with fire apparently under control and still trailing formation. A/C fell back out of sight and was not seen again. A/C 491 was last seen at approximately 5145N 0742E about 1228 hours.

Attached German Documents: A/C exploded in air; conflagration after crash.

2.0115 p.m. Boeing BAD DISSEN 7.5 km west BURGHOZHAUSEN HP 5/4 99% destroyed bursted in air, 2 prisoners. Alfred Burkhart captured, injured would not give any information.

From interviews after the war with crew members which are included in MACR 11209 we learn:
The Plane exploded in air.
Bailout may have started around 12:10 at 20,000 ft 30 to 40 Mi west of Hamm.
Co-Pilot broke his leg, rest of crew was in good health.

PROPOSED SOLUTION: Is ii likely that we have two different planes, both hit in the bomb bay at the same time and place and set on fire? Or are the descriptions in the MACRs mixed up observations of two different planes. I think it very likely that 44-6491 was hit in the bomb bay, set on fire and exploded before reaching the ground. I think that plane was observed both in MACR 10758 and in MACR 11209. I think that MACR 11209 has two sentences that describe 43-38141. "Several minutes later A/C ...was seen at approximately 20,000 ft with fire apparently under control and still trailing formation. A/C fell back out of sight and was not seen again. A/C was last seen at 5145N 0742E about 1228 hours.

In MACR 10758 we observe a plane from 1220 to 1225. That plane was seen to break up and go down.I think that plane was 44-6491. It blew up at 1225.

At 1228 we have 43-38141 trailing the formation and falling back out of sight, but without any fire observed. That plane, R5-V is the plane that I think crashed in Holland. The crew had bailed out and the plane was on autopilot. What the MACRs don't have are statements from the crew of 43-38141 about what happened. However, I have found two brief descriptions.

Here is the Obituary of Douglas Brink
"BRINK, Douglas, of Seattle Washington, died Monday, October 7, 2002. He was a B-17 bomber pilot in the 8th AF. While on a bombing run over Germany, one engine was shot away, a second was disabled and the plane was on fire and filled with dense smoke. The crew bailed out and was incarcerated for 5 1/2 months in Barth Germany. He was a member of the Seattle Chapter and is survived by his wife, Joan."

Here are parts of the Obituary of Milton O Price. Quoting from an interview he had given earlier.
"Assigned to the 487th Bomb Group, 839th Bomb Squad, Mr. Price was on a mission over Hamm, Germany, in October(sic) 1944 when his B-17 was struck by enemy flak, which destroyed one engine and left another on fire. Unable to control the bomber, the pilot ordered the seven-man(sic) crew to bail out."I can't describe it," Mr. Price recalled in the interview. "You don't know what's in store for you. The pilot just gave you an order to jump. You've never jumped before, and you're jumping into enemy territory. "Landing uninjured in a field, Mr. Price was immediately captured by two German solders who took him to Stalag Luft IV near Grosstychew, Poland, where he was confined to a dormitory room designed to hold 12 prisoners that was filled with 25 other POWs."

So if I am reading these statments correctly, 43-38141, the plane marked with R5-V, was hit in the engines not the bomb bay. The pilot was unable to control the plane and so the crew bailed out. While the plane may have been on fire, and in fact may have filled with smoke, (oil fire perhaps?), the fire was more likely in the wing/engines not the bomb bay. With two engines out, the plane could not have kept up with the formation and would have dropped back. It seems possible that such a engine/wing fire could go out and the burn damage not be evident in a crashed plane as we have seen with the Mutzie B which had a very similar type of fire.

So I propose the Mystery Plane is in fact 43-38141 and the squadron code in the Mystery Picture is R5-V.