22 Aug 44 P-47 near Tours sur Marne (nr Athis)

[Nick Beale]

"... after 5 days reading Ultra decrypts I'm badly in need of stimulation!"

After five days of reading Ultra you're probably more in need of rest and quiet in a darkened room.

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Chris, Larry and all others,

Interesting thread -

My source is a German combat report stating that ground crew member Obergefreiter Dorn of Stabskompanie II./JG 3 claimed a Thunderbolt on 22 Aug 44 at 14.20 hours "4km ostwärts des Feldflugplatzes Tours sur Marne". On this day Mustangs and Thunderbolts attacked this airfield at 14.15 hours - at the very same time when "unsere Gruppe " (II./JG 3) was taking off.

II./JG 3 was operating from Nogent le Roi from 27 July 44 - 10 Aug 44
From Athis from 10 Aug 44 - 21 Aug 44.

Interesting is that sources also state that II./JG 3 left Athis on 21 Aug 44. And that on 20 Aug 44 III./JG 76 arrived at Athis to replace II./JG 3 (Prien, Stemmer, II./JG 3, page 359). Part of ground crew had to stay at Athis in order to look after the aircraft of III./JG 76; obviously a small Kommando of pilots of II./JG 3 was attached to III./JG 76.

Might Athis, Tours sur Marne and d'Epernay-Plivot all be the very same airfield..?

Ultra stated on 13 Aug 44:
II./JG 3 on A/F 139A (Plivot); this provides confirmation that II./JG 3 is to remain in France and not transferring to Reich to rest and refit as envisaged. For a/c of II./JG 27 being taken over by II./JG 3.

Best regards,
Rob

[Larry deZeng]

Some additional information on Plivot:

Épernay-Plivot (FR) (a.k.a. Athis) (49 00 25 N – 04 05 10 E) )
General: landing ground in NE France 28 km S of Reims, 10.5 km ESE of Épernay and 1.2 km SE of the village of Plivot.
History: a French Air Force landing ground since at least 1939. Used by the RAF in 1939-40. Believed to have been used by Luftwaffe Bf 109s and by a short-range tactical reconnaissance unit during the advance through France in June 1940. No subsequent development by the Germans after the Armistice until Spring 1944. Surface and Dimensions: grass surface measuring 915 x 732 meters (1000 x 800 yards). No runways. Fuel and Ammunition: had underground fuel tanks on the N and SW sides of the landing area. Infrastructure: no hangers, workshops or other buildings of any sort (May 43). The nearest rail connection was in the village of Oiry 5 km NW of the landing ground. Dispersal: no organized dispersal areas and the landing area was surrounded by open cultivated fields. Defenses: none (12 May 44).
Remarks:
3 Oct 43: Allied reconnaissance reported Épernay-Plivot to be permanently obstructed by trenches and in addition to being trenched, the landing area was further obstructed by rough plowing.
19 Apr 44: Allied reconnaissance and agents reported Épernay-Plivot had filled in the trenches and leveling work was underway to add a 320 meter (350 yard) extension off the SW corner to give the landing area a NE/SW take-off and landing run of 1510 meters (1650 yards); due to the construction, the landing ground is currently unserviceable.
12 May 44: Allied reconnaissance reported continuing work on the extension and the installation of perimeter lighting. Landing ground now serviceable.
Operational Units: Stab/JG 53 (Jun 40).
Station Commands: none identified.
Lw. Station Units (on the landing ground or close by on various dates – not complete): Frontreparaturbetrieb GL Épernay (1944); schw.Flak-Abt. 278 (Eisb.) (Aug 44).
[Sources: AFHRA A5259 p.1608 (14 Aug 43 updated to 12 May 44 and A5260 pp.1991-94); chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

I wonder if Athis might have been a satellite of Plivot? Again, there is no mention of Tours-sur-Marne or Athis in this extremely comprehensive Allied airfields documentation. Very strange.

L.

[hautemarnechris]

Everybody - thanks again.

Sorry not to have responded sooner -just back from France.

Like Larry my feeling is that Tours-sur-marne/Athis/Plivot were one and the same. However, just to confuse matters further Ultra reported on T274 (can't remember exact date) as follows:

"To ABIOC ((JG 3)) for ABUNO (( (ROMAN) 11 JG)) 3 on 10/8:- airfield ATHIS 20km East of Epernay between river and Railway. Square U175. Serviceable for landing.

NOTE: (1) source believes from JG 27 (2) on 9/8 Jagdkorps 2 ordered ROMAN II Jg 3 to be withdrawn to the reich for rest and refit.

Fair indication JG 27 on 10th informed J3 for 2nd Gruppe that airfield ATHIS 20km east of Epernay between river and railway was servicable for landing."

However, ATHIS lies closer than 20km to the east of Eperany; it's also south of both the river and the railway - but only just. But VRAUX lies 20km east of Epernay and according to the people who run the musuem at VRAUX "it seems that some BF 109 GS of JG 3 , based at Tours / Marne , also used Vraux , this time during June / July / August 1944." VRAUX and ATHIS are a short distance and equidistant from Tours-sur-Marne.

The wikipedia entry for ATHIS airfield says that modern Plivot was built a short distance from the original ATHIS airfield - it's claimed that all that's left of the original ATHIS airfield is a triangular concrete section which was the intersection of the two runways at ATHIS. Using Google street view one can indeed see what looks like a concrete section in the fields to the south west of ATHIS.

I think the only way to settle this is to visit the area and speak to local people. My guess is that they were all one and the same place. But I'm a bit concerned about the very detailed allied description of Plivot which Larry gives. I intended to visit PLIVOT and ATHIS last week but got side-tracked. I shall be in the area again in early September and will make a visit to try to settle this matter.

Fortunately for me, the key issue is whether JG 3 was "exterminated" by an RAF attack on an airfield close to TOURS-sur-Marne - whether the airfield was VRAUX, ATHIS or PLIVOT doesn't really matter.

I haven't seen any evidence that II/JG 3 suffered serious losses whilst on the ground when staioned in the Chalons area. And I don't think the RAF operated there. Therefore, I believe the agent's report was at best a gross exaggeration but more likely he was claiming the credit for what was a routine attack by the USAAF where a JG 3 gruppe (probably II/Jg3)suffered some losses but nothing like the catastrophic losses the agent portrayed in his report.

Thanks again for sharing your ideas and scholarship - it's most appreciated.

[Larry deZeng]

Excellent report, Chris! I, for one, will be looking forward to your findings after your on-site investigative inspection. It should prove very interesting and I hope you are able to find some old timers who still have some recollections of August 1944.

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Thanks Larry. The lat/longs for Plivot in the intelligence summary you give are right in the centre of the current Plivot airfield. Do you know if those lat/longs for Plivot were extracted from a WW2 intelligence report? Or are they a modern addition? I notice that Plivot is alo described as "(aka Athis)" If that were part of the original report then I imagine that settles the matter - ATHIS/PLIVOT were one and the same.

The purpose of my September visit will be to establish the exact locations of airfields in the Tours-sur-Marne area which were active in August 1944. I shall report back here when I know more.

[Larry deZeng]

Yes, Chris, those coordinates for Plivot were taken directly from the 1944 Directorate of Air Intelligence/Air Ministry airfield sheet without correction or alteration. The coordinates given in these airfield sheets was always for the dead center of the landing area.

Here is another one for you:

Vraux (FR) (a.k.a. Condé-sur-Marne) (49 02 37 N – 04 14 49 E)
General: landing ground in NE France 29-30 km SE of Reims, 13 km NW of Châlons-sur-Marne, 5.2 km E of Condé-sur-Marne and 1.6 km NNE of the village of Vraux. The landing ground was situated in a conspicuous triangle whose sides were - NE: the Reims- Châlons road; SW: the Canal Lateral de la Marne and the Marne River; NW: Canal de la Marne a L’Aisne.
History: Vraux/Condé-sur-Marne was a pre-war French Air Force field airstrip that was used by the RAF during 1939-40. It was obstructed by the Luftwaffe and ignored until spring 1944. Surface and Dimensions: open field measuring approx. 1150 x 960 meters (1250 x 1050 yards) and irregular in shape. Fuel and Ammunition: unknown. Infrastructure: no hangars or workshops, but there were 2 small buildings in the S corner that were being used as accommodations in Apr 44. The nearest rail connection was on a narrow-guage line at Vraux, and the nearest main line connection was at Châlons-sur-Marne. Dispersal: no organized dispersal facilities.
Remarks:
Jun 42: landing area reportedly obstructed.
19 Apr 44: landing area no longer obstructed. Original landing area now serviceable and leveling work has begun to extend the S boundary to provide a NE/SW landing take-off run of approx. 1510 x 320 meters (1650 x 350 yards).
Operational Units: I., II./JG 53 (15-22 Jun 40).
Station Commands: Fl.H.Kdtr. E 12/XIII (24 Jun 40).
Station Units (on various dates – not complete): none identified.
[Sources: AFHRA A5259 p.1543 and A5260 pp.1909-10 (2 Jul 43 updated to 19 Apr 44); chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

Larry

[rob van den nieuwendijk]

Hello Chris and Larry,

The following link might be helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athis_Airfield

Best regards,
Rob

[Larry deZeng]

Thanks for the link, Rob. More grist for the mill and more conflicts for Chris to try and sort out.

II./JG 3: Athis (10-22 Aug 44)
III./JG 3: Chalons-sur-Marne (10-27 Aug 44)

AirMin A.I.2.b coordinates for Épernay-Plivot 49 00 25 N – 04 05 10 E
Wiki Athis coordinates: 49 00 28 N – 04 06 50 E

The Wiki coordinates for Athis are a little less than 2 km E of the AirMin coordinates for Épernay-Plivot. There is no Google Earth evidence of there ever being an airfield at the Wiki coordinates. The difference in the coordinates may be that the AirMin ones are from 1944 while the Wiki ones are from May 2012. Since coordinates change over time, the passage of 68 years may account for this slight difference. If so, then this is further evidence that Épernay-Plivot and Athis are one and the same.

Châlons-sur-Marne is a different problem - see below:


Châlons-sur-Marne (FR) (a.k.a. L’Épine, Écury-sur-Coole) (48 54 N – 04 19 E or 48 54 20N – 04 21 05 E?)
General: a former landing ground in E France 6 km S of Châlons-sur-Marne that was inactive and unserviceable from 1940 until late spring 1944 (Jun 44?) when the Luftwaffe hastily restored it to active status. Only operational for two months, no airfield details are available from British Air Ministry sources. History: no information. Surface and Dimensions: no information. Fuel and Ammunition: no information. Infrastructure: no information. Dispersal: no information.
Remarks:
27 Jun 44: low-level attack on Châlons by VIII Fighter Command P-47s – claimed 1 x Bf 109 destroyed and 1 more damaged on the ground.
8 Jul 44: low-level attack by VIII Fighter Command P-51s SW of Châlons – claimed 9 x Bf 109s, 6 x Me 410s and 5 x Fw 190s destroyed, plus 9 x Bf 109s, 6 x Me 410s and 7 x Fw 190s damaged. [Note: “SW of Châlons” is assumed to be this airfield as it was the only one in that location.]
Operational Units: III./JG 3 (10-27 Aug 44).
Station Commands: none identified.
Lw. Station Units (on the airfield, in the town or nearby on various dates – not complete): schw.Flak-Abt. 278 (Eisb.) (Châlons Jun-Aug 44); Stab and elements of Ln.-Telegrafenbau-Abt. z.b.V. 11 (Châlons Dec 42 – Aug 44).
[Sources: chronologies; BA-MA; NARA; PRO/NA; web site ww2.dk]

The landing ground at Châlons-sur-Marne is 22.5 km SE of Plivot (Athis), so it seems unlikely that this two could be confused one for the other.

Larry

[hautemarnechris]

Thanks Rob and Larry

I'd seen the Wiki entry for Athis airfield. I've no idea whether it's reliable -there is so much on Wiki which is not.

The lat/longs they give are almost exactly where there is what appears to be a triangular section of concrete which I suppose could be an old section of runway. But, they say the airfield was to the SE of Athis village. The section of concrete is to the SW of the village. Like Larry I can't see any other signs of an airfield on Google Earth or Streetview.

I think the only way to settle this is by visiting the area and speaking to local people - there should be somebody at Tours, Athis and/or Plivot who can remember which airfields were where in August 1944. I shall also visit the folk who run the airfield museum at Vraux and stooge around on the ground to see if there are any signs of the pesky Athis airfield.

I've discounted Chalons airfield because it doesn't fit any of the other information - except that an Udet gruppe (III/Jg3) was based there in August.

Thanks again

Chris