Flt Sgt Jammy Payne 501 Squadron 1940

[Bruce Lander]

Hi,
From "Britain at War" March 2011 some more info (see attached) on the younger A.D. Payne.
Cheers
Bruce Lander

[paulmcmillan]

Just found out there was a Flt Sgt Payne in 29 Sqn in early 1930'a you reverted back to his trade on completion of his service I wonder if this is our man especially as a photo of him shows him to be much older than others in 501 Sqn at time

Paul

[paulmcmillan]

Default
My favourite for Payne now is F/Sgt Alfred Alexander Payne 90601 the reason for this is purely circumstantial but

1) The old posting from 2010 quotes him as 'A A Payne' no source I know but interesting none the less

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/2396...adron-1939-40/

2) I know he was a Flight Sgt in France 1940 with 501 Sqn as I have seen a photo of him and he is ranked such

3) He is on 1st January, 1941 MiD List

4) I guessed at some point from Summer 1940 he as made up to W/O. He is in the Sept 1941 AFL as A A Payne with Graduation date 1 Apr 1941

All guesses work I know but I think he is a good candidate

Paul

[Tom Semenza]

Paul,

The London Gazette shows a W/O Alfred Alexander Payne being commissioned to F/O on 9 Jan. 1945. However his NCO service number is given as 91018 (officer 56355). Is this the same individual?

Tom

[paulmcmillan]

This is him

91018 F/Sgt. Alfred Alexander Payne

Service Number between 90601 93600 RFC UK Civilians 01-Aug-1917 30-Sep-1917

He is RAF Muster Roll 1918 so born around 1901 ?

Rank Boy
Organisation Royal Air Force
Trade Boy
Rank (Army / Navy) Boy
Trade (Army / Navy) Boy Service

Prisoner of war No
Join date August 9th 1917
Pay shillings 1
Terms of enlistment O.E.



bMD register Births Dec 1900 (>99%)

Payne Alfred Alexander Medway 2a 630

[Chris Goss]

Wouldn't 40 be very old for a SNCO pilot in the BofB? He would be twice as old as the vast majority of his contemporaries

[paulmcmillan]

Chris

If you look at a picture of him here in posting #11 Bruce Lander's you can see he is much older than all the other NCO's of the Sqn who are about 20

I have been mulling this over.. Bill Wilkinson described Payne as a "senior pilot" and that his family had moved fromto Bognor Regis at the outbreak of the war, which implies that he may have had a child or children.

I have assumed Senior was in Rank, but it occurred to me it may have been age. I also have a theory why not W/O by 1940. However, he died in Chichester which is near Bognor Regis and he had family (I believe may have had up to 4 children)

Maybe he called "Jammy" because he was on Ops at the age when most of his other colleagues of a same age and experience would be instructing some where or other. It would also explain why an ace with 5 kills NOT operational during BoB. Basically, he should never of been on ops in BoF in first place!

[paulmcmillan]

I note a mix of RAFVR pilots 74nnnn and a few numbers of RAF boy/aircraft Apprentices that gained their wings.

Loverseed is interesting as he is technically RAFVR from Sept 1939 and it would have been a challenge for him to be operational by May 1940 , however he was a pre-war RAF officer pilot who few for the Republicans during the Spanish Civil War. He was then removed from RAF reserve. He rejoined RAF as NCO in Nov 1939

Jammy Payne was my grandfather, father to my father Alec payne who also served in the RAF in 81 Squadron. My father is 87 years old and his father jammy Payne was indead the oldest fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain. The D.A entry is incorrect as his name was Alfred Alexander Payne, some how we don't know how but his initials have been entered incorrectly which is annoying as at the Battle of Britain monuments his initials are scribed in incorrectly also. I will get my father to post more info now we are members of this forum.
Brad Payne

[vampiredave]

Several years ago I was fortunate to borrow the B Flight Flying Log and nominal roll for the period March 1939 until late 1940. I was also given a snap of Flt Sgt A A Payne and 'Ginger' Lacey in a billet, allegedly at Tangmere (?) so they probably knew one another before the squadron went to France? (Sorry, I was asked not to pass it on by the originator) I asked both Minnie and Sheila Lacey where the name 'Jammy' came from but they were unable to recall.

Flt Sgt Payne is first mentioned in the B Flt log on 9 May 1940 flying L1949 for 35 mins. He may have been on A Flt previously but the log only provides the basic info, ie, no duty, except for pencil notes in the margin. The following day (10 May) he is mentioned twice: L1991 SD-R 1.40 hrs and L1866 SD-P 1.00 hrs.

On 11 May 1940 he flew L1991 SD-R for 50 mins and is noted as shooting down a He111 nr Mourmelon at 14.40hrs
12 May 1940 flew L2055 SD-K three times (55, 30 and 15 mins) and shot down a He 111 near Vouziers
14 May 1940 shot down He 111 near Rheims flying L2045 SD-A for 50 mins
15 May 1940 shot down Do17 nr Vouziers while flying L1949 SD-R for 20 mins
5 June 1940 "Shot down Bf110" nothing in log but did fly "2959 SD-R" the following day.

He is last mentioned as flying P3040 for 30 mins on 25 June 1940. Sheila Lacey seemed to recall that he possibly went on to fly again with another squadron, but was unable to recall which one?

Btw: I did not provide the individual pilot histories or compile the captions in the Listemann book.

Finally, unfortunately I am unable to enter into any further conversation on the subject, having suffered a recent stroke (it took all morning just to compile this, which I hope is of interest?)