Marseille's victory claim disputed

[Graham Boak]

Originally Posted by Nokose

From the interview I understood Mr. Golding to say that Marseille claimed 6 victories but his "Press agent" stated 10. There were 5 actual losses. Were there any forced landings that were recovered and thus not included as losses. I can see a pilot shooting down an aircraft and honestly claiming a victory but then later on its recovered and repaired. So in the unit records its showing up as only no loss or only a few losses.

If the force-landing was at its home base (or other friendly) it would be recorded as such, as shown above, but not as being shot-down in combat. A force-landing in the desert away from the base would be recorded as a loss to the unit: if the aircraft was later recovered (and repairable) it would be taken away to the repair MU and may or may not go back to the same unit later - probably not.

[Nokose]

The Russians sent repair crews to the scene of force landings and either recovered the aircraft or fixed it well enough to fly back to it's unit. I remember reading of one Soviet ace who looked at a captured German pilot's log book and stated that there was no loss of Soviet aircraft on some of the days in question but then on being asked about forced landings from dogfights he admitted that it was possible that could be what happen. In the case of Marsielle his score might not be in the 150 mark but is probably well over the 100 mark. As far as Kurowski's books, I think he gets his information from war era articles like "Signal" and other published articles of the time (Just to many personal type qoutes that sound more like morale boosters).

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Nokose

The Russians sent repair crews to the scene of force landings and either recovered the aircraft or fixed it well enough to fly back to it's unit. I remember reading of one Soviet ace who looked at a captured German pilot's log book and stated that there was no loss of Soviet aircraft on some of the days in question but then on being asked about forced landings from dogfights he admitted that it was possible that could be what happen. In the case of Marsielle his score might not be in the 150 mark but is probably well over the 100 mark. As far as Kurowski's books, I think he gets his information from war era articles like "Signal" and other published articles of the time (Just to many personal type qoutes that sound more like morale boosters).

? didn't they have Gun Cameras fitted by the Me 109 F2-4/s.
Sharon

[Rob Romero]

Luftwaffe used very few gun cams -mainly for training purposes.

Gun cam footage is not always conclusive anyhow.

[Håkan]

Hello everybody!

Most interesting topic.

Captain Botha can't be confirmed as being shot down by Marseille since he reported in his combat report that his aircraft overheated after using up all ammunition on the Ju 87s (he did in fact report being attacked by a Bf109). He landed and waited for the engine to cool down before taking off again for his base.

Is there anyone with actual German combat reports from this combat?

5 SAAF Sq. also reported Italian MC.202s in this combat but as far as I can find there is no corresponding Italian claims for this combat.

Best wishes/Håkan

[ahafan]

Originally Posted by Håkan

Hello everybody!

Most interesting topic.

Captain Botha can't be confirmed as being shot down by Marseille since he reported in his combat report that his aircraft overheated after using up all ammunition on the Ju 87s (he did in fact report being attacked by a Bf109). He landed and waited for the engine to cool down before taking off again for his base.

Is there anyone with actual German combat reports from this combat?

5 SAAF Sq. also reported Italian MC.202s in this combat but as far as I can find there is no corresponding Italian claims for this combat.

Best wishes/Håkan

you know thats greatest thing I ever heard -YES they did that in WW1?
i heard too. _GOOD ONE)
marseille was one for shooting then not lookin and shooting at the next one.
so yes it could happen.

sharon

[Håkan]

Hello again,

While looking more into the combat reprots and ORB for this combat I can't find any evidence of the ground collision that Shores writes about in "Fighters over the desert". Is there anyone with more info in this?

However, Lt. v. d. Spuy who took part in the sweep "Moscowed" and returned early at 12:45. what is "Moscowed"?

Lt. Muir mentioned by Shores "Moscowed in an earlier sweep on the day taking off at 07:00 and returning 07:15.

Best wishes/Håkan

[Buz]

Hi Gents

I thought I might weigh in here with further information. On the 3 Jun 1943, the following aircraft werre lost or damaged by 5SAAF, which resulted in the aircraft being written off.

AN431 S - Lt P.C.F.Grobler - this aircraft collided with AK366 at LG143
AM401 I - 2/Lt. Martin
AK384 V - Capt. Robin Pare
AK366 O - Lt R.C Hirst - This aircraft collided with AN431 at LG143
AN262 C - Lt. Muir
AK421 Z - Capt. Morrison
AN468 J - 2Lt C.A.Golding

Capt Botha's aircraft is unknown, but was recovered and repaired.

Other losses or damaged on that day 4SAAF 2 damaged CAT2 cause unknown, 450SQN 1 CAT 2 due to AA, 112SQN 1 CAT 2 to fighters.

Buz

[biltongbru]

Originally Posted by Håkan

Hello again,

While looking more into the combat reprots and ORB for this combat I can't find any evidence of the ground collision that Shores writes about in "Fighters over the desert". Is there anyone with more info in this?

However, Lt. v. d. Spuy who took part in the sweep "Moscowed" and returned early at 12:45. what is "Moscowed"?

Lt. Muir mentioned by Shores "Moscowed in an earlier sweep on the day taking off at 07:00 and returning 07:15.

Best wishes/Håkan

Hi Håkan!

"Moscowed" is the RT code to tell you return to base immediately. They used this terminology in the SAAF sqdns, not sure if it was used by all Commonwealth Air Forces.

Ground collision between two Tomahawks happened on 3 June1942 with SAAF 5 sqdn round about 12:15 as a taxi accident while the squadron got ready for the take off to intercept the stukas heading for Bir Hacheim. The 2 AC's involved are Lt Robin Hirst GL-O AK366 and Lt Grobler GL-S AN431

regards
Tinus le Roux

[Håkan]

Hello Tinus and Buz,

Thanks for the addiitonal info!

Best wishes/Håkan