purpose of the Fighter Victory Credits Board?

[aaatripp]

Thanks for the very precise detailed explanation of AVCs, drgondog.

When 354th Fighter Group CO Col Kenneth Martin's P-51B collided with a ME-109 on 11 Feb 44 and he became a POW, I presume that he was awarded a confirmed destruction of an enemy a/c.

I know of Cesar Rodriquez, USAF (F-15) being awarded a confirmed kill in the Gulf War for manuvering an Iraqi a/c into the ground. The AVC online list for later conflicts (after WWII) also indicates the type weapon used and the model of a/c destroyed.

Tripp

[drgondog]

Yes to Ken martin VC for 2-11 collision.

[aaatripp]

Another thought to help clarify this discussion. Sometimes we "miss the forest for the trees"......

This system started with the first major era of aerial combat....The Great War (yes, that's what they called it before it became World War I). Measuring aerial victories and awarding ACE status was a means of measuring the prowess of a force's "aerial knights", the fighter pilots!

Credits were also awarded for downing bombers (which had gunners) and observation/scout planes (gunners?). Ground kills were never considered....
but begs the question: suppose you damage an enemy aircraft and it lands. If you then destroy it on the ground is it an aerial victory, a confirmed damaged e/a, a ground kill?

For comparison purposes between all conflicts a level playing field is necessary. Thus, there is no room for ground kills in making a fair comparison. Going forward...will this include drones? Or do they require that the pilot be aboard....otherwise, we have some guy at Creech AFB downing five enemy drones and filing for ACE status? Any comments out there?

Tripp

P.S. Special thanks to Super Moderator John Beaman for starting this thread to give us an opportunity to discuss this topic. Yes, the AVG had approx 80 ground kills (for which they were paid $500 each by the Chinese Air Force) which has always been included in their 7 month total of 297 enemy aircraft destroyed (air & ground).

[drgondog]

The first victory credit awarded by 8th AF VCB was Lt. Elza Shahan, 27FS/1st FG August 18, 1942. P-38 VC. IIRC it was for a credit near Iceland? but have to look it up.

As to the 'other question' - was the VCB an "Ace machine"? Nope.

The VCB was constituted to accurately dispose of claims as the credits were also an intelligence tool. Who knew who would be an "Ace"? Ditto USAF Study 85. When you compare 8th VCB to USAF 85 the credits assigned were seldom removed unless double counting occurred (and such did occur).

If you have a choice I suggest aligning your fact gathering to Dr Olynyk's research data.

[PMoz99]

Hi guys. What an awesome discussion.

Sorry to butt in. Ha - as a relative newbie I feel like a new employee sitting in on a Managers' meeting!

For mine, VCs have to be aerial kills. It fits more with the perceived "glamour" of being a Fighter Pilot. AFAIK all the lists I have seen over the years have always separated aerial kills from ground kills and drone (read V1) kills if possible so as to level to field.

And in WW2 shooting down a jet was a much bigger deal than shooting one up on the ground, no?

Sure, there are big risks involved in shooting up ground targets and pilotless aircraft, just consider the likes of Beerbower and Jean Maridor, but it's just not the same!

Cheers

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

I may have this in the wrong forum--as a Moderator, I apologize but that's one of the privileges of being a Moderator.

As may of you know I live in North Carolina. The 4th Fighter Wing at Seymour-Johnson AFB in Goldsboro is having an exercise this week celebrating the fact that in April 1945, the 4th destroyed its 1000th enemy aircraft. As we all know this counted air and ground strafing.

In 1957, the USAF Fighter Victory Credits Board denied all claims for ground kills to both units and individuals, hence the 4th is down the list from 1000 destroyed.

John - a better perspective is that the USAF was conducting a study to see if a statistical combination of traits was 'common' to fighter pilots which achieved the status of Ace. Project Ace started in 1959, published in 1962 as USAF Historical Study 73 "A Preliminary List of USA Air Force Aces, 1917-1953"

When I pointed this out to the USAF 4th FG historian, he commented that he thought the 1957 FVCB was set up to only deny "Ace" status to those who had ground kills as a part of their claim to Acedom. My sense is that the Board was doing ALL kill claims for both units and individuals, not just whether you were entitled to "ace" status.

You are correct

Can anyone comment on the "official" mission of the Board?

THX

I have commented on this in this thread.

That said, The biggest consequence to the focus on air victory credits was that so many Aces as determined by 8th Air Force with combined air/ground, or ground only victory credits, were stripped from the American Fighter Aces Association. It was a sad consequence for the warriors that risked their lives in perhaps the most dangerous activity for a fighter pilot during WWII - strafing a German airfield.

As an example, the 355th FG pilots were perhaps the most affected as their 'ace list' went from 56 to 21. Additional 'insult to injury' is the fact that 90 of 180 downed fighters (notably including evaders and one rescue) were due to strafing. Of the remaining "90", The 355th lost 39 air to air or 'unknown cause' suspected due to air to air.

Summary - the USAF had a reason to research and publish their 'best efforts' to analyze, parse and assign air victory credits - punishing the 4th Fighter Group (or 355th or 339th, etc) was not a motive. As an aside, even the rules of an "enemy aircraft expected to be armed" as a necessary criteria was 'bent' because more than a few Ju 52 and Do 24 and FW 44 (transport/trainers) are in the credits.