Interesting photograph of He 111 Sep-1939

[Stig Jarlevik]

Marius/Franek

So if I understand you right, there are Polish publishers willing to bet their hats by making FOUR volumes, IN Polish about the GERMAN point of view in the air campaign over Poland in 1939, but NONE is willing to take a single shot at making a dual language COMBINED book at all, which more than Polish speaking persons can understand?

Pathetic!!

Well Marius I hope we at least can get your stuff published somewhere else so we AT LEAST can get SOME detailed view of what went on.

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Stig
It is economy! Making such book bilingual will double the price and thus reduce selling of otherwise quite expensive books for ordinary customer here.
Making a book in one seems not very possible as well. Mixing all the events in one bag will result only with a chaos.
Marius
I have never claimed that Cynk's book shows complete air war over Poland but more less complete history of PAF in the campaign. It is based on documents, so obviously is not a propaganda.
Contrary to your opinion, Poles are open to any views. What is noticeable, all comments after your publications have one common thing - his [your] way of showing the air war and his comments are simply unacceptable.

[Marius]

Stig,

there was only one publisher in Poland (Robert Michulec of Armagedon) who wanted to bring out my book without "political" and "patriotic" corrections, the famous Polish point of view.

There was one another Polish publisher who wanted to start a project at the end of the nineties, created by me (for Luftwaffe) and Jerzy B. Cynk (for Polish AF). This project failed, because Cynk gave it up after a few weeks. About one year later Cynk`s work was published (unchanged) by AJ-Press.


Franek,

 I have never claimed that Cynk's book shows complete air war over Poland but more less complete history of PAF in the campaign.

Yes, I know. But the Polish campaign part is completely based on the book published in Poland "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie w boju wrzesniowym". There are only few reliable Polish documents for this short war period and I mean it is truly impossible to write down the whole story without checking the German contrary.

And Franek one more important thing. It is not my personal way of showing the air war in Poland as well as not my personal war against Poles, but the story is told by origin German documents. I am only the one who is presenting these informations to people interested on this topic. If you don`t believe them? Okay, it is your decision.

If you say "my way" is not acceptable so at the same time you don`t accept other research or documents than Polish. The reason is clearly visible: if German documents does not confirm the Polish heroic and successful point of view (by the way the truth is - surely surprisingly for many people then - that Polish AF was in fact blown out from the sky in a very short time, wasn`t it?) so it is better for the German documents they would never exist. Right?
The problem is they do exist and you should better try to comment them and not say something like "it is unacceptable".
I will tell you what is really unacceptable: to manipulate original documents or personal accounts to make the pilots victories more credible. I won`t start such a discussion again here, but you know what I mean.

Besides German documents even the lone logic is showing us that the whole Polish AF was much too weak, the 160 fighters with its 2 small machine guns much too old and too slow. Many pilots were just "greenhorns", without expierence on the PZL P.11 (in schools they flew the older P.7). They never could have destroyed 100 or even more Luftwaffe aircraft.
Why is it so hard to accept?

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

there was only one publisher in Poland (Robert Michulec of Armagedon) who wanted to bring out my book without "political" and "patriotic" corrections, the famous Polish point of view.

Apparently without language corrections as well.

There was one another Polish publisher who wanted to start a project at the end of the nineties, created by me (for Luftwaffe) and Jerzy B. Cynk (for Polish AF). This project failed, because Cynk gave it up after a few weeks. About one year later Cynk`s work was published (unchanged) by AJ-Press.

It is no wonder.

Yes, I know. But the Polish campaign part is completely based on the book published in Poland "Polskie lotnictwo mysliwskie w boju wrzesniowym". There are only few reliable Polish documents for this short war period and I mean it is truly impossible to write down the whole story without checking the German contrary.

Again, your lack of knowledge is appealing. Cynk did quite a research on Łoś bombers as well and this is included. It is still the best description of Polish Campaign in English.
Apart of that you have no slightest idea about survivng Polish documents and their reliability.

And Franek one more important thing. It is not my personal way of showing the air war in Poland as well as not my personal war against Poles, but the story is told by origin German documents. I am only the one who is presenting these informations to people interested on this topic. If you don`t believe them? Okay, it is your decision.

I can make the difference between documents and your comments.

If you say "my way" is not acceptable so at the same time you don`t accept other research or documents than Polish.

No, it is a matter of particular researcher. I have no such problems with Don Caldwell for example, although I do not agree with him with everything.

The reason is clearly visible: if German documents does not confirm the Polish heroic and successful point of view (by the way the truth is - surely surprisingly for many people then - that Polish AF was in fact blown out from the sky in a very short time, wasn`t it?) so it is better for the German documents they would never exist. Right?
The problem is they do exist and you should better try to comment them and not say something like "it is unacceptable".

Well, it is not surprising you repeat Goebels' claims but it does not necessarily means it is truth. Actually, Luftwaffe was unable to wipe out Polish aviation up to the end of Polish Campaign, despite overwhelming numerical and technical advantage. It is a compromitation. Polish heroic and successfull point of view is that Polish aviation survived and even managed to inflict some losses. Your research just confirms that.

I will tell you what is really unacceptable: to manipulate original documents or personal accounts to make the pilots victories more credible. I won`t start such a discussion again here, but you know what I mean.

As yet I see it is you, who manipulate and misquote Polish documents and publications.

Besides German documents even the lone logic is showing us that the whole Polish AF was much too weak, the 160 fighters with its 2 small machine guns much too old and too slow.

Yes, indeed, and it is well known here since 1939.

Many pilots were just "greenhorns", without expierence on the PZL P.11 (in schools they flew the older P.7).

Apparently you have no slightest idea about Polish fighter units, their pilots and their training. I have photos of training P.11cs likely taken in 1938. Apart of that, from pilot's point of view, both P.7 and P.11 were not that much different. Concerning pilots, those without much experience almost did not fly combat sorties. A good comparison is that of Skalski and Jaugsch of 142 Eskadra. Skalski flew a total of 26 hrs, which is quite impressive number for two weeks of flying. Jaugsch, relatively unexperienced pilot, flew one sortie IIRC.

They never could have destroyed 100 or even more Luftwaffe aircraft.
Why is it so hard to accept?

But they could have well shot down as many. Why it is so hard to accept?

[Marius]

Franek,

Cynk did quite a research on Łoś bombers as well and this is included.

Yes, but we are mainly discussing about the Polish fighters and their victories. That`s what I mean.

No, it is a matter of particular researcher. I have no such problems with Don Caldwell for example, although I do not agree with him with everything.

It is bullshit. It`s your personal problem with Germans. Why do hate Germans so much?

Actually, Luftwaffe was unable to wipe out Polish aviation up to the end of Polish Campaign, despite overwhelming numerical and technical advantage. It is a compromitation.

I don`t think so. Polish main airfields were totally destroyed in the first two days of September. So there remained no reserves for the frontline units. The rest of the Polish AF powers had only symbolic value.

Polish heroic and successfull point of view is that Polish aviation survived and even managed to inflict some losses.

Practically Polish AF did not exist, because it was much too weak.

I have photos of training P.11cs likely taken in 1938. Apart of that, from pilot's point of view, both P.7 and P.11 were not that much different.

Very good Franek. There were plenty of P.11`s in schools, but in September 1939 three squadrons had stiil to fight with the old P.7.
As I know most pilots had to learn flying the P.11 in operational units. Those ones who leaved for example Deblin in 1939 had no possibility to do that.

 But they could have well shot down as many. Why it is so hard to accept?

Only empty patriotical phrases. German records are telling us another story than yours. I trust in German documents.

Marius

[Franek Grabowski]

Marius

Yes, but we are mainly discussing about the Polish fighters and their victories. That`s what I mean.

And I say it is the best and probably only reliable source to read about PAF during the Polish Campaign in English.

It is bullshit. It`s your personal problem with Germans. Why do hate Germans so much?

No, it is not. I know several Germans, born there, living there and even flying with the Luftwaffe. Neither of them behaves like you.

I don`t think so. Polish main airfields were totally destroyed in the first two days of September. So there remained no reserves for the frontline units. The rest of the Polish AF powers had only symbolic value.

Luftwaffe hit no combat aircraft, only trainers and even wrecks. The impact was nil - Polish AF suffered more because of moving frontline, poor logistics and lack of replacement aircraft rather than Luftwaffe actions.

Practically Polish AF did not exist, because it was much too weak.

Perhaps it did not exist but it says a lot of (lack of) quality of the German airmen, who were unable to destroy so few aircraft.

Very good Franek. There were plenty of P.11`s in schools, but in September 1939 three squadrons had stiil to fight with the old P.7.

Oh, another sample of manipulation! I have never said there was plenty but there was enough P.11s in schools to convert the airmen.

As I know most pilots had to learn flying the P.11 in operational units. Those ones who leaved for example Deblin in 1939 had no possibility to do that.

You do not know. That simple. Pilots of XIII course have not finished their training, so there is no point to discuss it further. They have practically not seen active service during the Campaign either. The photos I have are from albums of pilots of XII course.

Only empty patriotical phrases. German records are telling us another story than yours. I trust in German documents.

Nope, German records are just telling that. It is you, who does not understand the difference between shot down and destroyed aircraft.

[Marius]

Franek,

 And I say it is the best and probably only reliable source to read about PAF during the Polish Campaign in English.

The only source in English language, yes, but surely not the best one...

Polish AF suffered more because of moving frontline, poor logistics and lack of replacement aircraft

And who caused the moving of the frontline? Aliens?
Polish AF hadn`t modern aircraft (exceptionally the few P.37`s). So for what replacement aircraft? And who was responsible for lack of modern or replacement aircraft? Surely the Germans, they just had too much of them...

Perhaps it did not exist but it says a lot of (lack of) quality of the German airmen, who were unable to destroy so few aircraft.

Surely Poland was a big country and it was not easy to find a handful aircraft hidden somewhere on the ground. It has nothing to do with the quality of German airmen. But indeed, also many German airmen were just "greenhorns". It is not a secret. But Polish historians made them all to veterans of Legion Condor...
I will ask you something: German airfields were full of Messerschmitts, Heinkels and Dorniers. How many German aircraft were hit on the ground by Polish AF? Nil? "What a compromitation"...
In the air Polish fighters were practically blown away. Many Polish pilots, when not superior to the enemy, just didn`t attack. I mean it was just a human reaction in a very stressful situation, wasn`t it?

It is you, who does not understand the difference between shot down and destroyed aircraft.

Very good, Franek. You surely mean the many shot down Luftwaffe "phantom aircraft", which also disappeared without a trace from German documents.

No, it is not. I know several Germans, born there, living there and even flying with the Luftwaffe. Neither of them behaves like you.

?????
?????
?????
I don`t believe it. They would never speak with someone like you, knowing about your stupid comments describing German airmen as simple murderers of children, wives and so on.

Marius

[John Beaman]

I have closed this thread because once again a few people have hi-jacked it for personal attacks and some sort of weird vendetta that the vast majority of us care nothing about.

If this sort of hi-jacking of threads continues, I will recommend to Ruy that some members be suspended.

John Beaman