Photos 12-2-05

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

That's what I meant (markings on the aircraft are genuine). And please guys - it seems that this 'that seller is providing a fake and that seller is providing a fake' stuff has taken over.

We really have to be entirely sure that this is the case! Have any of You guys bought and examined photos from this guy?

The reason I am saying this is that a lot of these photos existed as copies in LARGE numbers. They were sent to the remotest of places (including Norway) and often belonged to local archives to use for public relations work (like the magazine Luftflotte Nord I have some issues of)

There was a large photo archive (partly destroyed and looted shortly afer the war) in Norway used for this purpose. A lot of the photos in the BA Fotoarchiv in Koblenz are also there (PK photographs).

Are these fakes? No! Are they originals? Yes! Are they copies? Yes!

During my work with the Battleship Tirpitz I have come across the same photograph in several photo albums. These are all wartime, but they are of course not originals! They were copied in large numbers and the crew could get them for their own album. The same thing happened also in the Luftwaffe.

In addition: A large number of photoarchives also existed at the larger news agencies. During the war most of the photographers, also in the PK units, seemed to serve a double role: They were privately employed by a company, like for example Atlantik, but also enrolled in a certain PK unit. The photographs they took seems to have been a part of the companies archive also. And these companies would be able to sell copies (probably censured) to other agencies, very like it is today!

Unless this is a complete fraud, it is possible that the photographs comes from such an archive, a press archive.

I am not trying to defend anyone, but I have to state that the fact that a photograph has previously been published DOES NOT IMPLY that a copy offered for sale is not a wartime copy.

Regards,
Andreas

[wrackplatz]

Hello Andreas,

you also are right, but these photos are NO press photos or something
like that. They were produced in present! And they are produced in masses!
I own 1-2 of these photos to ducument fakes. It's the same story as the
well known "old reproduction photos of the 50th". They also are modern
prints. If I find some time I'll scan some examples.

This is not a discussion to denigrate some ebay sellers. It's only
a possibility to protect some potential buyers against fraud.
I think we all want to have fun with our hobby but it's not OK for
me when some people try to make money with fakes because of the
acknowledge of other people. If some collectors only want to own copies
or reproduction photos because original photos are very expensive, then
it's OK. But in this case it's better to buy some good books because the
publishers and collectors spend a lot of money to publish formerly
unknown photos. I hope you understand my point of view.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

I totally understand, and it is of course legit to out someone that are making forgeries!

My point was only that original photos are photos reproduced from a negative, and the same negative was sometimes used to make hundreds of copies during WWII.

Regards,
Andreas

[edwest]

Andreas,

You have provided important information. Unfortunately, all collectible items have fakes among them. For those who collect German Militaria, there is at least one, if not two, books about spotting fakes. Why people would use their time and skill to cheat another person is usually not understood by people who would never do such a thing. It happens.

I have seen a few photos on eBay where markings appear to have been added. Sometimes, it is very obvious, other times, one has to examine the contrast and detail of the entire image, and even this is no guarantee.


Ed

[Franek Grabowski]

Ed
If a photo may reach over 1000 EUR, it becomes just an easy money. There are tons of fakes of German memorabilia like insignia or camouflaged uniforms, so why not to make photos, which are much easier in production and much more profitable?
BTW
A print currently taken from an original negative - what is it - original or copy?

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

BTW A print currently taken from an original negative - what is it - original or copy?

An original copy!

Actually an original print. Techically, if a print is made from an original negative it is still and original print. It does not make any difference when it was printed.

[wrackplatz]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

If a photo may reach over 1000 EUR, it becomes just an easy money. There are tons of fakes of German memorabilia like insignia or camouflaged uniforms, so why not to make photos, which are much easier in production and much more profitable?
BTW
A print currently taken from an original negative - what is it - original or copy?

Hi Ed, hi Franek, hi John

we all saw lot's of photos at ebay which reached prices between 100 and
1000 Eur. Because of this we have so much fakes. Some peole try to
make the same profites. I want to give some thoughts.

In the 1950s and 60s lot's of collectors of German militaria wanted to own
original items of WW II. Tons of material was destroyed and the demand
for original memorabilia became bigger and bigger.
The first good quality copies were made in this time, some years after
WW II. Today you can buy perfect medals and badges. It's a really big
business.
Thousands of collectors want to own a Knight's cross or cuff titles of
XX etc. And original photos of German planes. That's fact. I know a
well known trader of militaria in Germany who produced helmets in mass!
Publishers make photos of his great collection of German steel helmets -
some with very interesting camo - most of them are fakes! Or they buy
old binoculars, leather straps, belts and stuff like that to sign them
with old original WH stamps. All of these items are fakes. Some years ago
I became a offering of German medals. I contacted 3 of the best know
German traders of militaria: The first said the medals were good, another
one said they were fakes, the 3rd was not interested in them. I hope you
understand that I won't tell their names here.

Some years ago photos and documents became more and more interesting
for hundreds of collectors and publishers worldwide. The prices at ebay
exploded! It's a hard to get new unknown photos. Sometimes you have
luck, mostly not. But I want to answer your question, Franek: "A print
currently taken from an original negative - what is it - original or copy?"
On the one hand we can say that every copy of an original negative is a
original photo. But on the other hand most collectors define only wartime
photos until 1945 as original photos. You can see differences between the
paper and, very important, the chemicals of photographic laboratory. The
surface of the photos is different and you can feel and see if a photo is
a fake made with old paper for example.

Now I want to find an end, I hope you are not bored now...

[Franek Grabowski]

Just an another question, how about wartime photos made from copy negatives or even reproduced? Are they still original?
Having some fun, hopefully, increasing number of fakes will reduce prices, but I am not so sure.

[edwest]

Gentlemen,


There is no "Price Guide to Luftwaffe Photographs"! There is no "standard" price. And if you don't like where prices are going, honestly, what are you going to do about it?



Ed

[wrackplatz]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Just an another question, how about wartime photos made from copy negatives or even reproduced? Are they still original?
Having some fun, hopefully, increasing number of fakes will reduce prices, but I am not so sure.

Hello Franek,

I hope, this discussion is not only a fun or joke or something like that for
you. The problem with fakes and wrong desciptions of non original photos
is really serious. But how do you want to proof if an original wartime photo
was made from a copied negative? By he way I've never heard about
reproduced negatives in the 1940s. You can find enlarged wartime photos
of negatives (or maybe photos), when no negatives were existent any
more. That's it.
The prices of good photos will not fall until some collectors are ready to
pay such great sums. So you have to bid high prices too, maybe you'll
be a "lucky winner". I wish you all the best. But the increasing number
of fakes will have no influence on the prices, I'm sure.