659 IAP KOLDUNOV

[HGabor]

You mean IAPs? No. Unfortunately 288 IAD regiments had no similar marking systems at all. Squadrons used different colors, but regiment markings were not similar within division. The really nice feature in VVS markings is that aircraft factories rolled out La-5, la-7, Yak-3 fighter planes with factory applied tactical numbers making the frontline paintings faster and easier for the ground crews. Plane ID part of plane serial number was painted on the planes on late models, eg. Yak-3s still in the factories. Like 1711 = white 17 (of batch no.11) Therefore knowing the plane serial number is an extremely critical information in graphical reconstruction or modelling, kit painting, etc. Regiments usually did not have planes with same tactical numbers (ie two planes with no. 17 from different batches at the same time), if they did, then they usually applied a 3rd digit to make visual difference, eg. 26 and 126, where digit 1 was added on the airfield, while 26 came from the factories in both cases. Size and style of applied digits tell which factory did the plane come from. Eg. Saratov or Tbilisi 'style' numbers on the Yak-3s, etc. Older models in 1941, 1942, unfortunately did not have this practical numbering system from factories. IL-2 units also did not have this method. IL-2 regiments usually went by 1X, 2X, 3X markings in their 3 squadrons, where eg. tactical '21' was plane No.1 in the 2nd squadron, tactical '213' was plane no.13 of the 2nd squadron, etc. IL-2 regiments therefore had 3 digit markings very often, fighters only when factory applied number was the same (from different batches) on two or more planes at any given time in the same unit.

Gabor

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by HGabor

You mean IAPs? No. Unfortunately 288 IAD regiments had no similar marking systems at all. Squadrons used different colors, but regiment markings were not similar within division. The really nice feature in VVS markings is that aircraft factories rolled out La-5, la-7, Yak-3 fighter planes with factory applied tactical numbers making the frontline paintings faster and easier for the ground crews. Plane ID part of plane serial number was painted on the planes on late models, eg. Yak-3s still in the factories. Like 1711 = white 17 (of batch no.11) Therefore knowing the plane serial number is an extremely critical information in graphical reconstruction or modelling, kit painting, etc. Regiments usually did not have planes with same tactical numbers (ie two planes with no. 17 from different batches at the same time), if they did, then they usually applied a 3rd digit to make visual difference, eg. 26 and 126, where digit 1 was added on the airfield, while 26 came from the factories in both cases. Size and style of applied digits tell which factory did the plane come from. Eg. Saratov or Tbilisi 'style' numbers on the Yak-3s, etc. Older models in 1941, 1942, unfortunately did not have this practical numbering system from factories. IL-2 units also did not have this method. IL-2 regiments usually went by 1X, 2X, 3X markings in their 3 squadrons, where eg. tactical '21' was plane No.1 in the 2nd squadron, tactical '213' was plane no.13 of the 2nd squadron, etc. IL-2 regiments therefore had 3 digit markings very often, fighters only when factory applied number was the same (from different batches) on two or more planes at any given time in the same unit.

Gabor

Hello Gabor,

Thank you for all the information that you shared! May I ask a different question about Koldunov? I've recently read, through Google Translate, a Russian web source that claims Koldunov shot down a Fw 190D over Austria towards the end of the war. This sounds very dubious to me, but I wonder whether you can provide a clarification on this subject. Did Koldunov or any of his colleagues encounter 'Doras' over Hungary or Austria? Indeed, were any 'Doras' available to the Luftwaffe in that area?

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[HGabor]

Hi Paul,

I think it is just another common ferry tale... Soviet reports usualy mentioned only core AC type without subtypes, especially in 17 VA: ФВ-190, Me-109, or Ю-52, etc. Also, their reports are FULL of mistakes even at the main AC type! (Not to mention serious overclaims by flak and air units, claiming the very same plane.)

Several times when they reported 'ФВ-190', their real opponents were in fact Hungarian Bf 109s. (usually G-10 & G-14s) Do not forget, in early 1945, the winter, or March visibility in the smoky clouds was Xtremely poor!!! They were not todays' museum-visitors, walking around the planes, - checking air-intakes, etc... Usually they just saw a dark silouette in a distance for a few seconds in the hazy air, (usually from the back or the front side). And they had to make decisions in a few seconds. Maybe the Hungarian spinner spirals and unusual grey-white crosses made them think it was a Fw 190, or 'close to it'. So even the AC types in official victory lists are seriousely questionable, not to mention the subtypes: F, G, or D. That sounds totally unrealistic. Otherwise in 17 VA op. area only Fw 190F-8s, F-9s were flown by SG.2 and 10. Hungarians used only F-8s. The rest was Bf 109G-6, 10, 14. So I think Doras never met Koldunov's flight. Cheers,

Gabor

[Paul Thompson]

Hello Gabor,

Thank you very much! It's essentially what I expected, since there is no other mention of 190Ds in the area. I suppose it's difficult to expect good aircraft identification given that it was clearly not a priority and when there were additional limitations that you described.

The reason that I am interested in this question is because it touches upon the topic of the relative performance of the late-war fighter types of both sides, be they Yak-3s flown by Koldunov or the later model 109s of the Axis. Could it be that the mention of the mythical 'Doras' represents the fact that later 109s had significantly better performance, surprising the Soviet side?

I've copied three Russian-language web extracts below, so that you can see what I looked at and perhaps comment on their contents. The first two are about the 'Doras', the last describes Koldunov's flight claiming 11 victories on the 8th and 9th March 1945. Note that in extract 1 the aircraft are Ta 152s, in extract 2 they are 190s with bombs!

1. http://jairspb.org/?page_id=229
Свои последние две победы одержал на Як-3 Александр Колдунов, в воздушном бою западнее Вены он сбил два Та 152. Комэск 151-го ГИАП Е.Ф. Веселовский сбил над Веной на Як-3 четырехмоторный “Кондор”.

2. http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ac...s/koldunv.html
Свой последний бой он провел западнее Вены, вблизи Санкт - Пальтена с пятеркой "фоккеров" груженных бомбами. Шли они спокойно, видимо не ожидая встречи с нашими летчиками. Колдунов стремительно атаковал ведущего. Тот, не успев сбросить бомбы, взорвался в воздухе. Александр тут же зашел в хвост второму Fw.190. Короткая очередь - и объятый пламенем самолет противника устремился к земле. Через несколько дней после этого вылета война закончилась.

3. http://clubs.ya.ru/46116860184274333...l?item_no=3186
8 марта Герой Советского Союза капитан А. И. Колдунов и 5 его товарищей вступили в неравный бой с 12 вражескими истребителями и уничтожили 6 из них. На следующий день эскадрилья капитана Колдунова вела бой уже с 26 самолетами противника. И в этом бою враг потерял 5 самолетов, а советские летчики благополучно вернулись домой.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[Paul Thompson]

You’re welcome, Gabor! It’s quite a coincidence that the article refers to one of the 2 Yak-9U losses you mentioned above.

You make a very significant point about transition time. Quite possibly the use of several types simultaneously made the maintenance situation worse and this also contributed to lower serviceability when the weather closed in. It must have been difficult to maintain the new engines Yak-9Us along with the old engines of the previous Yaks.

I see that the spring made heavy fighting possible, yet I would have expected that the Axis air forces would be overwhelmed by superior Soviet numbers. Instead, I’ve gained the impression from the data you provided that the Soviets had great difficulties in the air. On this topic, I’ve managed to dig up the total loss figures of 17 VA for January 1945 from the same notes I mentioned before. The losses were quite heavy – 241 aircraft: 47 La-5, 140 Il-2, 14 Bostons, 30 Yaks, 3 Pe-2 and 4 Po-2. Do you know the summary losses for March 1945? It would be very interesting to compare the two!
You are quite right to note that the Germans threw a large proportion of their remaining armour into the Balaton fighting. It is incredible that they did so in precisely the same area where they had conducted three separate Konrad offensives throughout January. I think that the Soviets would have suffered far more had the Germans been able to surprise them. For example, The SU-100 units were only made available in the area as a response to the January fighting, so the Germans made things much more difficult for themselves by not altering the offensive plan.

The link with photos is excellent! Do you think some of the tanks destroyed by air attack were hit by PTABs? I do not know how PTAB damage should look, so I am wondering if you have an idea. More generally, it seems that modern Russian historians like to display the results of the battle, because the book I keep referring to is full of various images of destroyed Axis equipment, which add to the ones you linked to. In fact, the images are the reason that I have the book, Google Translate doesn’t help much with reading a whole text! Here’s a link to the book’s description:

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/4556060/
Разгром 6-й танковой армии СС. Могила Панцерваффе
ISBN 978-5-699-34808-4; 2009 г.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[HGabor]

Thanks Paul,

We do have it, but it still would take lots of time to collect the data for the losses of the different soviet AC types in 1944-1945. Now I just put together the Douglas A-20 Boston losses of the soviet 5 and 17 VA between 12.1944 – 05.1945. Note that the 5 VA (2nd UF) used only A-20G models, while the 17 VA (3rd UF) used A-20B,C,G,J, and UA-20C trainers. Later they used A-20K as well. Both the 5 and 17 VA used the Bostons as their ONLY official daylight bomber plane. (Pe-2s were only in Recce. units, Po-2s flew in the night, or as messenger, medical planes, etc.)

Permanent A-20 Boston bomber losses of the soviet 5 and 17 VA (2nd and 3rd Ukrainian Fronts in Hungary)

December, 1944 losses – (Battle for Budapest, - mainly 5 VA)
5 VA:..........................................17 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 7, AAA: 5, Accident: 5)
17 VA:.......................................... 5 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 3, Accident: 2)

January, 1945 losses – (German Konrad I-II-III offensives for Budapest, DFS 230, Ju 52, He 111 etc. airlift to Budapest, Pest side fallen on January 18, 1945)
5 VA:........................................... 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 1, AAA: 2, Accident: 2)
17 VA:..........................................15 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 10, AAA: 2, Accident: 3)

February, 1945 losses - (Budapest (Buda side) fallen on February 13, 1945 - Catastrophic Axis breakout from the soviet cyrcle with almost complete loss)
5 VA:..........................................NONE! !!
17 VA:..........................................3 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 1, Accident: 1, Other: 1)

March, 1945 losses (Last German Panzer offensive of WWII near Lake Balaton)
5 VA:.......................................... 5 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 2, AAA: 3)
17 VA:.........................................20 A-20 Bostons (Dogfight: 7, AAA: 9, Accident: 3, Other: 1) – Koldunov’s 866 IAP heavy battles near Lake Velencei and Balaton

April-May, 1945 losses (Mainly in Austria and Cz / Slo)
5 VA:.......................................... 9 A-20G Bostons (Dogfight: 3, AAA: 4, Accident: 2)
17 VA:.......................................... 6 A-20 Bostons (Airfield accident: 4, Other: 2)

Gabor

[Paul Thompson]

Gabor, thank you very much for that!

I’m awestruck by the level of detail and comprehensive nature of your data, and slightly embarrassed that I can’t share anything similar! Do you plan to publish a book about these battles? I'm sure that many here would like to read a great study of this still under-researched topic!

It's noteworthy that the Boston units flew a mix of sub-types just like the fighters, probably because Hungary was remote from Soviet supply bases.

The loss figures you provided add up to 84 Bostons lost, subdivided as follows - Dogfight: 34, AAA: 25, Accident: 21, Other: 4. Out of the 34 Bostons lost in air combat, 17 VA lost 20, which suggests its fighter escorts were ineffective. Were any of the bomber Bostons used as auxiliary night fighters? I think that some modified A-20Gs operated in this way during the siege of Breslau, but I haven't read the same about Budapest.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[HGabor]

Thanks. As of the night fighters, none of the 5 or 17 VA Bostons were modified for that purpose. They were all 4(+) crew-modified bombers, including the standard A-20Gs, which were originally built for a crew of 2, or 3. All 5&17 VA Bostons were modified with a nose navigator/bombardier cabin and even many of the new A-20Gs were reverted to older A-20B or -20C versions for better visibility from the nose. Only the latest A-20Js and A-20Ks were put in service intact. 17 VA had only 2-2 A-20J and A-20K models in 1945, - that's it. 5 VA had a single A-20K-11 (44-148) in 1945.

In the Museum we have huge amount of data on 5 & 17 VA indeed, (plane & AC engine serial-numbers, loss reports, crew lists for all Bostons, IL-2s & fighters), but its primary purose is to identify recovered planes to return the fallen soldiers to their families after 6-7, or more decades, via the Embassy of the Russian Federation in Budapest. Books (in English) for the most honored International Public may come later, but at this point it is not our primary goal. Our main goals are our recovery projects and co-operation with our Russian researcher friends and partners.
A BIG Thanks and credit to them for their help!!!!!!!!!

Gabor

[Paul Thompson]

Gabor, thanks again!

I’ve tracked down where I took the information about Boston night-fighters from. It’s on page 84 of Osprey’s “Soviet Lend-Lease Fighter Aces”, which says that 26 and 27 GAPI-DDs (Guards Air Regiment – Long Range Fighter) used A-20G-1s with Gneis-3 radar as night fighters. There is no reference to Breslau in that book, so I must have read that somewhere else, I’ll try to track that down. Did the Soviets use any night fighters at all over Budapest?

I was aware that the Soviet torpedo-bomber units ‘de-modified’ their Bostons, didn’t know the same was the case for bomber units. Soviet A-20Js and Ks must have been extremely rare, as your data shows. I’ve found that they received 665 A-20Bs and 1441 A-20Gs, so these were the dominant models.

The work you are doing is great, and I have the highest respect for it! It’s also good to know that the Russian archives are opening up to some extent, even if they have a bad reputation in the West, it is indeed a credit to them. I hope you can keep sharing information here, it is great to be able to access your knowledge! For my part, I’ll organise the notes I’ve got from that book and send them to you, I hope they can add a small bit of information.

Regards,

Paul Thompson

[John Beaman]

Very good work Paul and Gabor! This kind of posting(s) is what this board is all about. You are both to be commended.

BTW are you related to Eva?