First American citizens killed in WW2

[Larry]

I don't think it was quite WORLD War 2 in 1932 or 1937

[bearoutwest]

Larry,
It wasn't a "World War" in 1939 either. Just a little European conflict between four countries, with two of those countries possessing reasonably sized empires or colonies. We can probably agree that WW2 ended in Aug 1945, but can disagree until the cows come home about which relatively minor conflict saw the start of WW2.

Regards,
...geoff

[Graham Boak]

Not a world war? Given that the combat which starting in 1939 involved combatants from all continents (colonial or not), and that one important naval battle was fought in South American waters, it seems a very narrow perspective to suggest otherwise. That it had many earlier conflicts (some still on-going) contributing to the fragile state of international relationships is quite true, but that has rarely been different.

Perhaps a better argument can be made about the end of WW2, whether or not to count the continuing local dispute with Japan as worldwide. Hmm, things do look different from other perspectives, don't they?

[CJE]

Any historian would tell that WWII started on 1 September 1939 in Poland and ended up on 2 September 1945 aboard USS Missouri.
The rest is purely academic.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

The most widely shared start and end dates of WWII are 1 September 1939 to 2 September 1945, and between these dates, the first American citizens killed were the 28 civilians killed when SS Athenia was sunk on 3 September 1939.

The full list of those lost is available at http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/athenia.html. Where all other sources give the number of US dead as 28, this list (with names) list 30 American citizens, but also 7 Polish and ... 4 Germans !!!

[bearoutwest]

I’m not trying to rewrite history, here. There’s the generally accepted convention that WW2 covered the period Sep 1939 to August (or September) 1945. That’s fine as a reference marker.

The point I was trying to point out is that it does depend on your perspective. In terms of defending your country or lifestyle, then different nationalities probably consider different timelines:
(For example, and this is my conjecture for the purpose of discussion),
Poland Sep 1939 – May 1945
USSR Jun 1941 – Aug 1945
USA Dec 1941 – Aug 1945
China Jul 1937 – Aug 1945

The original question in this thread was really about the first US citizen killed during the Pearl Harbor raid and termed “First American citizens killed in WW2”. This would nominate Dec 1941 as the start of WW2 for the Americans – in the OP’s terminology – but would not include the US citizen’s killed in China, Spain, in the Athenia (or in the two USN destroyers sunk by U-Boats prior to Dec 1941). It would exclude the US citizens (either as part of the Eagle Squadrons or in the RCAF) killed in action or in operational flying for the RAF. It would also exclude the one (or two) members of the AVG killed in operational flying/training prior to Dec 1941.

I’m merely raising the question whether a broader consideration of WW2 is appropriate based along lines of continual warfare between the combatants. Chinese, Russian and Japanese forces were in action in 1937 (with the Russians supplying aircraft and aircrews). The level of fighting in China at the time (and at Nomanhan in 1939), was as extensive in terms of territory covered and casualties as anything in Poland or the Western Front up until May 1940. These three combatants were still actively engaged in hostilities at the end – Aug/Sep 1945.


You are, of course, free to disagree. I'm not looking for a definitive answer. Just raising food for thought.


Regards, ...geoff

[GuerraCivil]

I think that there are two dates of the start of WW2:

1.9.1939 is the Western/European start date

7.7.1937 is the East Asian/Chinese start date

The ending of WW2 has also different end dates:

8.5.1945 is the Western/European date (Russians consider it to be 9.5.1945 because of its signing time in Moscow´s time)

2.9.1945 is the East Asian date, but is nowadays recognized as the final end of WW2. The US, Chinese, Soviet, British, Commonwealth countries and some European countries were in war with Japan up to that date and that is still a lot of globe in war.

There are also different dates to be argued. Britain and France declared war to Germany on 3.9.1939 (not on 1.9.1939, but German-Polish war 1939 is widely recognized as part of WW2)

From the East Asian/Chinese point the Chinese-Japanese war should be considered as part of WW2 right from the start of 1937. Or was it suddenly another war called WW2 since 7.12.1941, when USA and other Western countries became allies of China? One could argue that Sino-Japanese war became suddenly a part of WW2 in Dec. 1941, but Chinese do not share that view and they have reason to do so.

"First American citizens killed in WW2" means thus both civilians or volunteer fighters KIA before the Pearl Harbor Attack 7.12.1941. If You take 1.9.1939 as start date, then the victims on board of Athenia are definitively the first US victims of WW2. If You take 7.7.1937 as a start date, my guess is that the two crewmen of USS Patay and American captain of one oiltanker were the first US citizens killed in Sino-Japanese war. The assault and sinking of USS Patay was also the first Japanese attack against US Navy vessel (which had a visible flag and other US markings).

The choice is yours. Most Western/European historians consider 1.9.1939 as a start date of WW2. East Asian/Chinese and also few Western historians consider 7.7.1937 as a start date.

Just to add: Arthur Chin is considered in USA (at least by American Airpower Heritage Museum in Midland, Texas) as a first American ace pilot of WW2. He participated in Chinese-Japanese War in late 1930´s and achieved his air victories long before the Dec. 1941.