269 Sqdn Anson combat with Do.18. 19 Sept. 1939

[robert]

There were 2 engagements with British aircraft that were reported by German maritime fliers on this day but only 1 Do 18 was involved (second aircraft was He 115).

Regards

Robert

[bill norman]

Thank you, Robert. The Do.18 is the one I am after. Do you have any information about it - unit, code, crew?

Regards,
Bill

[bill norman]

SES,
Any idea of the co-ordinates for the RAF Coastal Command position QSSV 2737?

Bill N.

[Chris Goss]

Bill
Suggest you PM him. I have checked again-no other CC combat logged that day apart from the 269 Sqn one

[bill norman]

Thanks, Chris. Will do.

Bill

[Seaplanes]

In the KTB for General der Luftwaffe beim Oberkommando der Marine for
19. September 1939 the following entry is made:
"Feindliche Luftaufklärungstätigkeit zwischen 57 und 59 Grad nördliche Breite.- Je ein kurzer Luftkampf He 115 Südspitze Norwegen und Do 18 Qu. 4277 gegen feindliche Landflugzeuge (vermutlich Lockheed 14). Vom
Gegner durch Wegziehen in die Volken abgebrochen. Keine Beschädigungen."
Unfortunately no indication of units involved.

[bill norman]

Seaplanes,
Vielen Dank für Ihre Antwort - nützlich. Ich glaube, dass ein weiteres Stück passt!

[Stig Jarlevik]

All

Thanks for the update with regard to the pilot killed

Not sure if I am the only one who have Shores' book or not, but unless he sat and fantasized in front of his computer, it would be interesting to know why he wrote ' The following day saw two encounters over the North Atlantic between opposing patrol aircraft, but both proved indecisive. At 1005 and Anson of 612 Squadron encountered Do 18 8L+EK of 2./KüFlGr 606 some 122 miles east of Wick. In the short combat which followed the Anson made four firing passes, but the Dornier disappeared undamaged in the clouds.'
Since Shores' book, at least to me, is the standard work for the period in question I am interested to know
a) Why does he state 612 Sq and not 269 Sq?
b) Why does he list both unit and code of the Do 18 when it still is unknown?
Is he mixing this combat with something else which in fact happened another day?

Bill
Not sure what you mean with 'McNeill's claim'. The point I am trying to make is that he makes no claim at all in his book. The incident with the killed 269 Sq pilot this date is not listed at all.

B Rgds
Stig

[Chris Goss]

Not sure that 8L was 606 either?

[bill norman]

Stig,
Thanks for your input.
I suspect that we're talking about different incidents here - one relating to 612 Sqdn; the other relating to 269 Sqdn. What date was 'the following day' in your quotation from Shores' book?

The 269 Sqdn Anson did not make 'four firing passes' on the Dornier. Two shells from the Do.18's first (and only) burst hit the Anson, one of them killing the pilot instantly. After that, the Anson crew was too pre-occupied with trying to regain control of their aircraft (before it hit the sea) to engage in combat. After the lucky burst, the Do. disappeared into cloud and was not seen again.

According to Shores, 612's Do. was encountered c. 122 miles E of Wick at 1005hrs; 269's Do. was spotted at 1010hrs and after a brief chase the Anson was hit when about 140 miles from base (Montrose), though compass direction is not given. The locations of Wick and Montrose again suggest different incidents - unless the 269 Anson met the '612' Do. when the latter was on its way home. Assuming that Shores' date is correct, I am more inclined to think that there were two Do's involved - which makes me wonder whether both Do.18's were from the same unit (2/606).

Re. McNeill's 'claim', you are correct: I was simply (and imprecisely!) treating the omission of the 269 incident as a 'claim by omission'. Clearly, not a good idea. However, the incident did take place: I have copies of most of the official accounts relating to the incident; Burrell's grave is at Montrose; and I have spoken with Ted Willits, Burrell's navigator, who averted an almost certain disaster by exceedingly prompt action. I have also seen the citation for his DFM - and held the medal.

Bill