Nice Me 262

[Revi16]

KG(J) 6? Scroll down a bit.
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/i...t-me262/page-2

[PhilippeDM]

Hi there,

You can find pictures of 'Black 1' in Messerschmitt Me 262s of KG & KG(J) units - Luftwaffe over the Czech Territory III pp 114-145-150-178. (David E. Brown, Ales Janda Tomas Poruba, Jan Vladar - JaPo 2010)

I personnaly do not see the insignia in the front of the machine, but think more of bullet holes. The two strange parallel stripes between the black 11 and the karoband are most intringuing, as this is the place of the Balkenkreuz. They do not feel right in the picture, but is this a toned down version of it?

Concerning the WNr. I feel more in the direction of 111581...

[SES]

Hi,
I recently read the last month of the KTB of OKL, it is stated therein that KG(J)6 and KG(J)27 were disbanded without ever having received Me262s.
bregds
SES

[PhilippeDM]

SES,

I agree with KG(J)27, but concerning KG(J)6, I have a copy of Jan Horn's article were he describes the last actions of KG(J)6 in the Czech Republic (Gefechtsverband Hogenback, IIRC) were KG(J)6 is named. Besides different pictures exist of Bf109 and Me262 with a red/black Karoband. I am curious to know to which unit those planes belong according to your finding.

[SES]

Hi Philippe
I will see if I can find the entry, but is it conceivable that personnel from KG(J)6 were transferred along with their a/c to Gefechtsverband Hogenback before the unit was declared operational on the Me262, but after the RLV band had been applied. I have seen a number of instances within the night fighter force, where a Staffel or a Gruppe was transferred to another NJG, but retained the original codes and markings for quite some time.
Additionally neither KG(J)6 nor 27 appear on the Luftwaffe Gliederung as of 14. April 1945.
bregds
SES

[Karl]

Dear all,

what an intriguing photo. Evidently the nose gear collapsed ( during landing?) . Both main wheels are in extended position. The right hand Jumo004 seems to be lost. No sign of bullet holes.
From the start it was clear to me that this machine weares the KG(J)54 sign (skull with crossed bones), although merely discernable. Then the white outlined number 11: If compared with the swastika, the colour should be black. But what about the chequerband around the fuselage. For a KG(J) 54 machine it should be white-blue. If you take the "white" balkenkreuz as reference, this would be possible.
Werknummer 111 581 (see Philippes comment) would fit perfectly with the standard camouflage scheme for this batch ( known photo of WNr 111 603, another Leipheim-Me262)..
I do not believe, that this photo was "tuned". The reason is
a) the photo is of a real kite (not a model, too much details recognizable)
b) even without these spectacular markings it is a valuable photo.

The Karoband discussion goes on...

Karl

[PhilippeDM]

@Karl,

Thanks for your insight. Speaking of KG54(J) insignia, do you refer to the patch under the windscreen? For me these are bullet holes. The diagonal KG54(J) stripe is missing, This should proof the plane to be from KG54(J) but its absence does not implies it is not.
The black "11" compares well with the "black 1" previousely mentionned. I agree that the parallel stripes on the fuselage could be from the balkenkreuz, but I never saw toned down fuselage balkenkreuze on Me262.

@SES
In JaPo's book covering the KG(J) units in the Czech Republic p.10 , there is a copy printed of an accident report , dated 02/04/1945 of Uffz. Gunther Heinz Blütchen of 7.Kampfgeschwader 6 at Kostov, Czech Republic. I agree with you that KG(J)6 was not operational, but its III Gruppe was still training on Me262 and reported as such but it was declared operational on April 12th, 1945 (see p. 14). In a copy of a document, printed on p.47 the organisation of "Strahlverbände" is mentionned. The entry under Ge.Kdo.IX.Fl.Korps (J) clearly state:
"Ge.Kdo.IX.Fl.Korps (J) unterstehen oder werden sofort unterstellt. ... J.G.7., K.G.6 (J) und K.G.54 (J) mit alle unterstellten Vebänden (wie bisher)..."
(roughly translated this read: (following units) are subordinate or are immediatelly subordinate to HQ IX Flieger Korps (J(agd)) ... are J.G.7., K.G.6 (J) and K.G.54 (J) with all their subordinate units (like so far))

This document is dated May 1st, 1945... So according to me KG(J)6 was not disbanded...

[Karl]

Hi Philippe,

yes, you are right, for me the "patch" under the windscreen is the simplified late war KG(J)54 insigna. The size and shape of the "patch" matches perfectly with the insigna of "yellow 2" as shown on page 120 of JaPo's book covering the KG(J) units in the Czech Republic. And the black "bullet hole" resembles the black skull inside the crest.

The "bullet hole" below the insigna may be the access hole for the fuel tank attachment.

And yes, the diagonal stripe along the fuselage is missing. But according to my knowledge, this stripe is seen on some (not all) Me262´s of III.KG(J)54 originary used for conversion training. Operational I.KG(J)54 planes found at Giebelstadt after the war like B3+EK, B3+CL (shown in volume III of the Me262 Classic Publications series of Smith/Creek on page 630) did not wear the diagonal stripe.

Also the number 11 in black is no show stopper. Lt Guenther Eilhardt of I.KG54 noted in his flight log for the missions against B17´s on 17.04. and 19.04.45 flights with "6 schwarz" and "8 schwarz" respectively. Mostly Eilhardt himself and other KG54 pilots flew Me262´s with white and yellow numbers.

Relating to the paralell stripes on the fuselage: At this position these are without doubt parts of the balkenkreuz.

I just want to express my doubts that "black 11" is definitely a KG(J)6 plane.

Best wishes, Karl

[lumabe]

Hello,

The rudder is white or yellow ?

If it was yellow, maybe it was painted for Luftflotte 4 ( and later Luftwaffenkommando 4 attached to Luftflotte 6 in 04/21/1945 ) ?

Any idea ?

Thanks,

Best regards,

Lumabe.

[SES]

Originally Posted by PhilippeDM

@Karl,



@SES
of "Strahlverbände" is mentionned. The entry under Ge.Kdo.IX.Fl.Korps (J) clearly state:
"Ge.Kdo.IX.Fl.Korps (J) unterstehen oder werden sofort unterstellt. ... J.G.7., K.G.6 (J) und K.G.54 (J) mit alle unterstellten Vebänden (wie bisher)..."
(roughly translated this read: (following units) are subordinate or are immediatelly subordinate to HQ IX Flieger Korps (J(agd)) ... are J.G.7., K.G.6 (J) and K.G.54 (J) with all their subordinate units (like so far))

This document is dated May 1st, 1945... So according to me KG(J)6 was not disbanded...

Hi Philippe
Please see attached ULTRA intercept.
bregds
SES