When M.D. Baranov was shot down ?

[Nikita Egorov]

Gentlemen,

The story does not go that smooth. In total 16 Bf-109s were claimed by 269 IAD plus one more by 929 IAP on August 6, 1942 all but one in Abganerovo-Plodovitoje-Aksaj area south of Stalingrad. German losses were: 1 - 100% combat (Roehrig), 1 - 100% non combat (Bergmann), 1 65% non combat and two Bf-109E-7s of I/Sch.G.1 35% Flak and 45% Motorstorung.

[Monaco]

Thank you Nokose and Paul,
Nokose I agree with you 100%, that one has to be very careful when comparing soviet (and german) victory claims with real losses. In these conditions of heavy air combats with a lot of aircraft overclaiming on both sides was common. And I think propaganda also played a big part. On the soviet side to cover up losses and boost morale, on the german side when aces were coming near a particular number (100 victories, 150...), that was connected with a particular awarded. It seems then overclaiming was even higher...
Baranov is especially interesting as he was one of the early aces claiming multiple victories several times.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov

Gentlemen,

The story does not go that smooth. In total 16 Bf-109s were claimed by 269 IAD plus one more by 929 IAP on August 6, 1942 all but one in Abganerovo-Plodovitoje-Aksaj area south of Stalingrad. German losses were: 1 - 100% combat (Roehrig), 1 - 100% non combat (Bergmann), 1 65% non combat and two Bf-109E-7s of I/Sch.G.1 35% Flak and 45% Motorstorung.

Hello Nikita,

Thank you for providing additional information, it does appear to indicate that the VVS was over-claiming significantly, doubtless as a consequence of the difficult general situation, reflected in the "not a step back" order issued just 10 days prior to the events under discussion.

Was Baranov actually wounded in this combat? The absence of victories after this date would suggest this, but he seems to have been assigned to frontline units continuously until his death, which is unusual for someone who should have been hospitalised.

I've sent you another question via PM.

Regards,

Paul

[Monaco]

One of his legs was seriously injured and this prevented him from flying again immediately.
From D.Zampini:
After a long convalescence due to his wounds and several photo sessions and tours to raise morale, he finally was allowed to return to a unit on the front. And he did so being transferred to the elite 9 GIAP (268 IAD, 8 VA Southern Front, since 11.12.42 back in combat operating from Zeta/Zety airfield S of Stalingrad). The new Commander, Lev Lvovich Shestakov, was forming a special regiment with aces and Mikhail Baranov was a logical choice to join the ranks of this guard unit. However Baranov could never show his qualities in combat again: On January 17, 1943, when testing a Yak-1 newcomer from the factory, he had to land due to problems in the aircraft (according to documents with the R-7 judgment of speed regulator). After landing, he asked permission to take off with another plane and began to make figures beginning from high flight in the area. At 3,000 m altitude he made a left turn, then a revolution and quickly put the Yak-1 into horizontal flight. The plane responded well at the controls of the experienced flier. Suddenly his plane again turned upside down and at a growing rate went vertically downward. The fighter crashed violently into the frozen ground and exploded immediately... The cause of the incident is still a mystery. He was first buried in Kotelnikovo, which is far away from any german claims for a single-engined inline fighter...

[Nikita Egorov]

Paul,

Yes, he was wounded. In fact this combat is not described in details for the reason that operational documents of 183 IAP and 269 IAD for this period are lost. At least they are not presented in the sites and inventories where they should be. I found only one description in the report of military comissar of 8 VA. There we have four Bf-109s and one Ju-87, one of Bf-109s brought down by air ramming. The participant of this combat Serzhant Savin attacked and killed German pilot descending on the parashute after air ramming.
Time of combat is absent and this is the main obstacle in any identification.

Monaco,

As regards to initial question of the thread, the answer should be in awards nomination documents. Suprisingly, HSU nomination sheet for Mikhail Baranov is absent on the OBD "Podvig Naroda". There is a nomination report on first two Orders of Red Banner just after first two victories in the end of October 1941. There is a brief description there that ufter first victories (October-November 1941) Baranov's plane was set afire by AA and he managed to nursue its burning machine to cross the frontline, where he bailed out.

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Monaco

One of his legs was seriously injured and this prevented him from flying again immediately.
From D.Zampini:
After a long convalescence due to his wounds and several photo sessions and tours to raise morale, he finally was allowed to return to a unit on the front...

Hello Monaco,

Thank you, the facts of Baranov's injuries appear to be reasonably consistent now. A word of caution, Zampini's research is highly suspect, especially when describing the actions of non-Soviet forces. For example, he has claimed that particular American aircraft were shot down in Operation Desert Storm, when in fact they crashed in the continental United States.

Regards,

Paul

[Paul Thompson]

Originally Posted by Nikita Egorov

Paul,

Yes, he was wounded. In fact this combat is not described in details for the reason that operational documents of 183 IAP and 269 IAD for this period are lost. At least they are not presented in the sites and inventories where they should be. I found only one description in the report of military comissar of 8 VA. There we have four Bf-109s and one Ju-87, one of Bf-109s brought down by air ramming. The participant of this combat Serzhant Savin attacked and killed German pilot descending on the parashute after air ramming.
Time of combat is absent and this is the main obstacle in any identification.

Nikita,

Thank you, some things are now very clear, while others remain very uncertain, as you stated. I assume that there was no German pilot killed in his parachute in this action, as both Roehrig and Bergmann survived.

It might interest some forum members than another ace of 183 IAP, Feodosiy Aleksandrovich Kirilyuk, was mortally wounded on 12 August 1942 and died on 17 August. He had claimed 5 victories in late July and early August. The regiment does not appear to have lost any other ace pilots during its brief period of combat in the Stalingrad sector.

Regards,

Paul

[Monaco]

Hello Nikita,
thanks for this info, which is new to me!
There is a brief description there that ufter first victories (October-November 1941) Baranov's plane was set afire by AA and he managed to nursue its burning machine to cross the frontline, where he bailed out.
To Paul thank you likewise, I agree on your opinion about Zampini´s articles. Anyway it´s fascinating puzzling things together after all those years, but not easy if you do not have all sources from all sides (especially the timetables) - many air combats on the Eastern Front will probably never be researched with 100% accuracy and one should refer to expressions like...were involved, there is a probability that...was shot down and so on. However as our russian members show VVS did record their losses in great detail - so hopefully we will learn more about it. On the other hand german records have proven not so trustful as they seem to be especially when one refers to the cause of the losses.